Terry Goodkind

[Yar]

brys, he is, i have to say, a perfect example of what the others have said about a goodkind fan! i don't mean to offend, yar, but you are. you are defending goodkind, as brys said, by dismissing our opinions as not good enough. exactly the sort of thing i get from other goodkind fans and the odd jordan one.

i never said homophobic. tho i thik he has an issue with women that he creates lesbian, leather wearing bondage type control freak women.

oh no no. i was a rape councellor for a while, let me tell you that his potrayal of rape is DEEPLY incorrect and wrong. rape is for power. it is NOT carried out the way he has it. rape victims, or those threatened with it, do not dismiss it, the way that kahlan did. a\nd lets see, strong female characters, you mean kahlan? who spends her life whining for richard every time they are seperated? um no.

and what about the countless accounts of graphic violence and rape towards women that has no purpose? what about the kahlan tasting her own menstral blood, that also had no pupose, when she gave a man she hated (or thouoght she did) a blow job. that's a strong woman, right? one who thinks, oh well, im married, lets make the best of it and give a blow job to this guy that i hate. and taste my own blood at the same time. and i am talking about khalan;s sister. who had NO other point but to be raped and give up her throne to her sister. why was she raped? what was the point? most usurpers kill the monarch, they don't throw them into a pit to be raped. and then she was so upset she gave up the throne. and what was the point in that?

goodkind did no research. none. i councelled rape victims for a while. i can tell you that. im sorry for your wife, but seriously, he did no research. none of the accounts are realistic, the fact kahlan is threatened byt gets over it time and again is proof of that. the way that it continuly happens in every book, getting worse, is proof of his misogny, or at the very least, hsi rape fetish. women are gang raped in a school, they have sex with monsters with barbed phallus', the are thrown down a pit to be raped, they are threatened with it. it goes on and on. and that's in the first four books. goodkind wrote his world. he set it up to be any way that he wanted. and what he wanted was for the monster the women had sex with to have a barbed **** so it would hurt and they would bleed. what he wanted was a prophecy that meant kahlan would have her period and then taste her own blood. what he wanted was a whole school of girls to be raped before being sold into slavery, all except the 'good' girl of course. the good are never raped, only the bad are. (except for kahlan's sister) what does that tell you about goodkind? that he sees rape as punishment for bad women. and that is not what rape is.

im sorry, but i disbelieve the man did any research. the way he has such WEAK female characters (and they are weak. they're not strong women) and so much violence towards them, makes me think he is a misognist. especially when added to the way that he spoke to the female fan who wrote to him. telling her she couldn't undrstand his work because she's female.

there is no excuse for the level of violence towards the female character. none at all. it doesnt' show a violent world, for good to rise above. it shows a world of abuse towards women. martin has ONE rape in his first 3 books (or 4) and i still get the idea that his world is violence and misognistic. goodkind has countless rapes and scenes of violence, but as they are all (with one exception) towards women, i am left with the feeling that HE himself is the misognist. not his world.

to be truly honest, you're behaving like a bit of a fundie, only with goodkind as your god. it seems to be a total blind acceptance that goodkind has done no wrong and anyone who dislikes him is callous and a bully with an agenda. we dont have an agenda. we just don't like him!

Again, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I can and do disagree with you, as I know and have seen the reasearch and know some of the people Goodkind has done with reasearch with. To make a blanket statement "goodkind did no research. none",is nothing more than an assumptionon your part to which you cannot speak accuratly. You may well have an opinion that differs from yours, but you cannot make that a valad statement as it is noly speculation on your part.

You can say I would specualte that he has or has not done this or that, but that is al the further you can go because you do not know what reasearch he has or has not done.

 

[the_faery_queen]

You'll also note that I don't go about badgering people about their mis-spelling or punctuation, yet you seem to think admonshing me for supporting a postiive aspect is something honorable! Kudos!

i notice misspelling in that. two is. just had to point that out.
and yes, evil exists, but not evil people.

and im sorry, yar, but you're not offering ANYTHING supportive or in the way of a rebuttal! im sorry, but you're not. to do that you would say, well i think the rape in goodkind shows this. or i think his characters are deep because of that. you wouldn't just call us all bullies and say we just don't like what is good. there is a difference between rebutal, and actually offering a counter argument, and dismissing us, as you hav ebeen. instead of saying, goodkind researched rape, why not say, he researched rape, and i think that shows because of this part or that part? why did you just dismiss my argument?

 

[the_faery_queen]

Again, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

I can and do disagree with you, as I know and have seen the reasearch and know some of the people Goodkind has done with reasearch with. To make a blanket statement "goodkind did no research. none",is nothing more than an assumptionon your part to which you cannot speak accuratly. You may well have an opinion that differs from yours, but you cannot make that a valad statement as it is noly speculation on your part.

You can say I would specualte that he has or has not done this or that, but that is al the further you can go because you do not know what reasearch he has or has not done.

again, that's your opinion and i can disagree with it. and i do. you may claim to know all these poeple, but the proof is in the pudding, as they say. and i see NO proof of research in his abusive behaviour towards women. so i can say he has done none because as someone who has also researched rape, i see nothing to prove that he has done so. it is my opinion, completely. but i can put it forward as a truthful statement as that is what i believe.

and hon, no offense, but you have been doing exactly that, making your opinion a valid statement. we are all bullies. we are all trying to subvert a good message. that's all opinion, put forward as fact by you. they are also blanket statements.

 

[Yar]

This thread has prompted an interest in me to actually read some of this guy's work. Can his diction be compared to anybody else's?
The bookstore in where I live finally got the first volume of that (in)famous series, so I've become rather curious about it all.

Incidentally, from all that I have ever read about this individual and his work, which is not much, I have come to a conclusion that he appears to be somewhat... "cultleaderish"(?) wouldn't you say? I mean, gauging from the reaction of Yar (and other fans, if I recall, from my glances through other message boards) to criticism of Mr. Goodkind's work (and his person too, of course). I don't know, but it's kind of unusual:
"I never seen such devotion in a droid before" ;P , to quote the ole' SW.

Well, criticism, is fine, it is bashing people for their like of his books an dhis views, then going to unheard of lengths to attack his fans that is the problem.

ANd good luck reading them. Like or dislike them, just try and make a choice based upon your own views and not those of people speaking for you.

 

[the_faery_queen]

which is what i did, yar. tho you don't seem to want to believe that. i read four, i based my own opinion on them. in fact, it was years before i got live journal, or read articles about him, that showed me others felt the same way as i did! my opinion is my own. i reached it by myself and i was already disgusted with goodkind all on my own.

and i agree silent speaker. it does seem a bit like a cult! there's a jordan cult, too, but it is smaller

 

[Lunatic]

Go ahead and give the books a try Silent Speaker.

Well, criticism, is fine, it is bashing people for their like of his books an dhis views, then going to unheard of lengths to attack his fans that is the problem.

I don't believe any 'bashing' has occurred in this thread toward Goodkind's fans.

 

[Yar]

i notice misspelling in that. two is. just had to point that out.
and yes, evil exists, but not evil people.

and im sorry, yar, but you're not offering ANYTHING supportive or in the way of a rebuttal! im sorry, but you're not. to do that you would say, well i think the rape in goodkind shows this. or i think his characters are deep because of that. you wouldn't just call us all bullies and say we just don't like what is good. there is a difference between rebutal, and actually offering a counter argument, and dismissing us, as you hav ebeen. instead of saying, goodkind researched rape, why not say, he researched rape, and i think that shows because of this part or that part? why did you just dismiss my argument?

You ask to offer up proof? You can make a statement like "i councelled rape victims for a while" and yet have offered no proof. Just your statement. SO how is that different? I happen to know Goodkind spent time as a clinical counselor. So again forgive me, I'm not attacking you just your blanket statement "he did no reasearch" which is the same thing as you are accusing me of yet you keep doing it...and its "ok" for you to do...just not me.

 

[Mark Robson]

Well, criticism, is fine, it is bashing people for their like of his books an dhis views, then going to unheard of lengths to attack his fans that is the problem.

I've just read through a large part of this thread and seen little evidence of anyone 'gong to unheard of lengths to attack his fans'. I suggest you lighten up a little, Yar. This sort of tirade does neither you, nor your idol, any good whatsoever.

 

[the_faery_queen]

never said it was ok for me to do it. and what proof do you want, yar? I have mentioned many accounts from his books that were violent towards women and served no purpose for plot or character development. i have mentioned other examples which just show his misogny, or at least, some sort of fetish at degrading women. you just dismissed them all by saying he did research. and just having you SAY he did research isn't evidence of that research. i cannot prove to you that i councelled women. you just have to take that on trust. just as i have to trust that you are right about goodkind having researched. but as i haven't written a book full of abuse of women, and he HAS, my statement is therefore more believable! anyone who has researched abuse on women would not have it to that level, happening to characters who don't exist OTHER than to be raped, and would show some level of trauma! why did he bother to researc the effects of rape if none of his characters are going to show it, except the queen, who wasn't a character!

as i said, proof is in the pudding. i have lots of proof that goodkind has written violent and abusive accounts towards women that serves no purpose to the plot. that makes me doubt he researched its effect on women. you have no proof that i councelled women, but no evidence that i haven't, either, except that i disbelieve goodkind did!

and 'keep doing it?' i did it once. you made serval blanket statements without any evidence, everyone who dislikes him is a bully, he writes good and noble work, he researched his rape, people dislike him because he preaches, everyone who dislikes him just wants to subvert his message. all blanket statements. all insulting against us, and not one actually responding to a point made, or using ANY knowledge of the text to back you up.

now i also have a degree. you don't have to believe that either, but i do. part of my degree invovled writing essays. if i had handed in an essay that had said, euripides liked wiomen and was just trying to show that in his medea. without one example from the text, i would have failed. but i didn't. i qyoted, i gave examples. (i can still quote that bit now, in fact) i didn't make blanket statements without any evidence. you have been. you've not offered one whit of proof.

please, you think this is an argument, so offer us evidence. instead of insisting goodkind research the rape, tell us why you think the rape is valid. instead of saying he writes a good and noble battle novel thing (like so many other fantasy writers do) give us examples. say why you think that. give us references to the text, to back up your argument, don't just say, you're all wrong because you're bullies and hate what is good.

 

[Mark Robson]

please, you think this is an argument, so offer us evidence. instead of insisting goodkind research the rape, tell us why you think the rape is valid. instead of saying he writes a good and noble battle novel thing (like so many other fantasy writers do) give us examples. say why you think that. give us references to the text, to back up your argument, don't just say, you're all wrong because you're bullies and hate what is good.

I think the key word here is 'argument'. Chronicles is a place for debate rather than heated arguments. Might I humbly suggest that you have made your point.

Yar is sold on Goodkind and will not hear a bad word said against the man - that much is clear. You are not a fan - and you have given your reasons in clear English. If Yar chooses to answer your points with reasoned responses, in a manner which is not so highly provocative, then I can see the point in this thread. If not, and this pointless arguing continues, then I shall be recommending to the appropriate Moderator that it be closed.

 

[Yar]

no. he doesn't. martin crated a realistic world of violence. where a woman is raped by a bunch of men for not liking the way that they groped her. where people are killed by their own children, where they are asssassinated for no reason other than they're in the way.

goodkind has a world where women are corrupted, and turned into bondage maidens who torture and kill. where slavers rape and abuse their victims before selling them on. (really. that much rape stands a good chance of killing those girls, or at least getting them pregnant. who would buy a pregnant slave? perhaps it happens, but i see it as a chance for him to have more rape of 'bad' girls.) i have yet to come across ANY person who is totally evil, without any good in them at all. hitler, for instance, had a wife/lover, was loved by children. he killed millions of people, tortured them, but still, some people liked him, some people saw good in him. we don't get that from goodkind's shallow evil characters. just as we get nothing bad in his good. they're all one or the other. that's not realistic.

and again, other writers have good verses evil! jordan does, tolkein did, hobb did.

and i feel bad for you, living in a world where evil is everywhere, as you apparantly do if you think goodkind's world is realistic. there is no such thing a sevil. there are evil acts, carried out by cowards. but i do not believe in evil itself. goodkind does. you clearly do. and that's frighteneing. that you would elevate the work of cowards and losers to the point of it being something evil. that the world is a fight against it.

now, im sorry. but you're still dismissing any argument as being not good enough. you're refusing to even acknowledge anyone else has a point and still insisting goodkind's book is a battle of good verses evil. if it is, its on the level of being another bible. because it is, in my opinion (no offense to the religious people here) as shallow as that is, with its characters. the situation is either this is good, this is bad. that's not realistic. there are grey areas in life. there are grey areas in people. goodkind doesn't have that.

now, my points, my reasons for disliking goodkind are as follows:
his MISOGNY. like it or not, that is what i think it is. you ahve yet to offer any argument as to why the vuolence and abuse of women is ok, you have just dismissed mine as being wrong. that's not winning the argument.

his one dimensional characters. people are not just good or evil. they have grey areas. they also whine. a lot. yes yes kahlan is pretty. yes yes she loves richard. i know that. shut up already, goodkind!

his plots are tacked on. we never hear of the temple of winds until it becomes relevant. not even a little mention. that makes me feel as though he had no idea what was going on until he got to it, and is making it up without any plan

his style. its just boring. it was an effort to read his work. he is not a good writer. i only stuck with it out of total boredom.

so those are my points. my reasons for not liking him. not one is about me not liking his preachiness (i never noticed it) or disliking his good verses evil stuff, as most fantasy writers have that. its about his style and writing technique.

yar, unless you can actually defend those points. unless you can say, well i think this, instead of just dismissing everything i have to say as not being good enough, please don't bother to answer me. you are behaving the way that goodkind fans ALWYS seem to behave. dismissing any argument as not good enough, insisting that goodkind is perfect and noble. NO WRITE is perfect! until you can offer a counter argument, until you can accept we have a right to our view and argue why you think it is wrong, without insulting us, i really don't see the point in talking to you.

and my point is again, it is nothing more than your opinion and you are entitled to it.

My opinion is you are incorrect and I am entitled to "my" opinion. I'm not and have not tried to change your or anyones opinion. I simply have offered up reasons why some people do this attack thing. ANd their own point prove me out over and over again.


I don't care that someone dosent' like Goodkind or his works. We all have differing opinions. Some like the color gerrn, some think it vile, some like red, some hate it becasue they think it an angry color inciting a negitive emotion,but when someone says anyone who likes the color red is vile and then gos about berating them for it...well they are the one with the problem. That is my point.
We all see things from another point of view. That does not equate to "Ahhhh - I though I smelled a Goodkind beatdown thread" and ajoining link for more atacking, bashing etc,

See it is being called what it reall is ...not a discussion thread...

"it baffles me, sometimes, the wya people STILL like goodkind"

meaning that people are not allowed to have their own opinion if it is different from yours..

"but the man himself is SO abhorant from what i've read, and you say you overhead,
and
but i know he is SO full of himself he'd just think im delluded. sigh. and that would make me hit him. which wouldn't help

tho would be fun!"

So it would seem you have not actually met the man, yet advocate physical violance against him...

Thats not an attack? That's not offering un a counter argument, that's just inproper behaviour.

"his 'good' girl characters are never raped, never 'soiled' by sexual violence. only the bad women characters are"

Why does he need to? Simply becasue you think he should? Simply because you want him to?
Personally I see enough of that crap on TV and the movise, I don't wish to see more of it.

"and yes, evil exists in the world, but not the way he shows it" and your proof is....what?


"kalahan, for instance, was threatened with rape countless times. it never seems to bother her! yet her raped sister is so traumatised she gives up the throne".

SO a woman who is strong of character and sets aside her emotion of this so that she can do her job, that being seeing to the well being of her people, is ....what? wrong in your eyes?
Sorry but that does happen, my wife is living proof.

It bothers you that he has shown a woman that did fall apart when being brutilized and raped... after you sat and said he never shows this kind of behaviour? I'm wondering which it is then?

"his good verses evil battles are completely over the top"
In most books that is the case,it is to make a point... to show the crazyness of it...


and on and on.

 

[the_faery_queen]

ah, you finally respond with something valid. but no, you haven't offered up why people attack goodkind, you've just called us names. bullies, etc.

no. people can like goodkind. i never said they couldn't. i jut said i don't understand why they do. you're twisting my words there.

um, haven't you ever said you'd like to knock some sense into someone? and how many times do you actually mean literarly? i would like to hit him, yes. does it mean i will, no. the same way that talking about wanting to kill your boss doesn't mean you will. nor does it mean you are encouraging violence against him. again, twisting my words.

and wow. wow. the very idea that the man researched rape and its effects, and then only raped the bad women, and you seem to think that that is ok, is frightening to me! are you suggesting that it is ok that women who are not good little angels, who bully, or who may make a few mistakes, deserve to be gang raped and tortured? i really hope not. but that is the sort of message I personally got from goodkind. bad girls get raped, therefore rape is pubishment. that shows, in my mind, lack of research on what rape is! its a power trip, not a punishment or act of luist.

and i am fairly sure your wife, after her attacked, didn't just shrug it off and get straight on with her work. i am fairly sure she was upset, took some time to herself, had to talk to epople about it, she didn't just dismiss it. and if she did, well then she's a minoirty. i have two friends who were raped. BOTH were upset and traumatised, but both got on with their lives. they still talk about it. they still express anger at it. kahlan never did any of those things. and the sister, well there she is, raped and abused, and she has to give up. that's not realistic EITHER! its two opposites. a woman who ignores the threats and gets on. and a woman who gives up her life because of the violence. where is the woman who is raped and upset, and messed up, but still carries on? serilla, in hobbs liveshp traders. raped by a man, many times. she never expresses her pain, btu she thinks it, and it effects her in many ways afterwards. the threat of rape does nothing to khalan. she ignores it. and the queen is so messed up she quits. not to mention the fact the queen is ONLY there tobe raped and give up the throne. why was that neccessary? why was the queen not killed and kahlan alone thrown into the hole? why did the queen hve to be raped as well? im sorry, but the fact none of the women react to rape in a way that is even slightly realistic makes me doubt he researched it at all. women don't just ignore rape, and women aren't always destroyed by it. they're somewhere in the middle.

where is the proof that the world does work the way goodkind says it does? where is the evidence of gang raped school girls sold into slavery? or monsters with barbed cocks have sex with evil witches? goodkind writes FANTASY. therefore his work is an extreme version of something else. it isn't truth. if it was truth it would be literary fiction. or a historical novel.

it doesn't show the craziness of it tho. it shows nothing. if something is so seperated from real life you cannot see anything in it. george r r mart6in's work is realistic. i can see what he has written happening, that makes it more frightening. the handmaiden's tale. that also has truth in it, a lot of women can see that happening to them. that their world becomes a conservative hell hole, where women are worth nothing. in fact, it has happened in some countries, some very religious ones, are like that. that's because it is taking something realistic and expanding it. it isn't over the top, but a natural following of an idea. goodkind's is so over the top it becomes camp and unbelievable.

and to be honest, you really DO care that people dislike goodkind. that's why you've called us names. if you didn't care you would have countered our arguments, or said why you do like him. this was never a discussion abotu why some fans dislike his work. it was a discussion about WHY we dislike it. you should have countered with why you do, not ttacked us.

 

[Yar]

I've just read through a large part of this thread and seen little evidence of anyone 'gong to unheard of lengths to attack his fans'. I suggest you lighten up a little, Yar. This sort of tirade does neither you, nor your idol, any good whatsoever.

I shall "lighten up".

 

[Shoegaze99]

Ya know, what is truly amazing is the fact that Goodkind will sit and signe every book that a fan brings in, No other world renoun author will do that...

Oh really?

 

[the_faery_queen]

i just wanted to add something, and i hope you will have a responce, yar, and i do mean that. (i was thinking a bout this at the gym, you see)

but you said goodkind did research into rape. ok. i will accept that. but if that is the case, why is there no evidence of it in the books? why is it that the only women raped are the 'bad' ones, and mostly they are names and not actual characters. and the actual characters who are thratened with rape, kahlan, dismisses it. in fact, i remember zedd thought more about it, how awful it was, than she did. so im just curious, why do you think this is? if goodkind did research rape, why is his use of it a, unrealistic, (bad girls being punished) and b, none of the characters show any sign of emotional distress about it. what did his research go into?

also, the homophobic thing you said earlier. i just remembered why some people think that. because of the pedophile rapist, who was going to sodomise kahalan. i know that a lot of people believe that he was gay, and that he was a pedophile rapist. that that was the only example of male homosexuality, and it was used to make the character into a rapist. the other homoesexuality were lesbians, and i've encountered a fair amount of people who are anti male homsexuality and hate it, but really like it in women. so i think that's where the idea that goodkind is homophobic may come from, this one character. i don't, personally, think it proves anything either way. but that is what i've heard from other people.

 

[SilverStar]

Hello and greetings all, its a distinct pleasure to be here. I've seen other Terry Goodkind threads go bonkers with threats... insults..and the like.. and I'm quite pleased that at least YOU fairy queen have reason and you're baking it up. I completely respect that.

Now I'll be quite honest here. I'm a Mr. Goodkind fan. Through and through..and I'd really like to answer some of the questions you asked fairy. ESPECIALLY about the whole rape situation.

1) There was a very main character that was raped in the book. He's the central character as a matter of fact. Richard himself was raped repeatedly while in the clutches of his Mord Sith. Kahlan was almost raped by the 2 quads sent to kill her and Zedd. What does rape symbolize?? I'll show you.

You see things like rape, and murder symbolize absolute control. Or..lack there of. I know you dont believe in true evil, nor true good..as you've stated above that everyone has some shred of good in them.. (this is also mentioned in the books...and I'll get to that point later... But to Mr. Goodkind...true evil is somebody that takes your every control away from you. That evil entity removes things such as choice, and free will. The rape of these people shows their free will taken completely from them. The rape strips them of any choice their able to make... So to Mr. Goodkind..its one of the clearest representations of HIS version of evil. (which I agree to be mine..for the record) Though sometimes he does get repetitive.. and uses a lot of his symbolism (in many circumstances) a lot..he does so with clear understanding unto what he's trying to accomplish.

His violence against women is evident throughout..and its not just women..its men too. But when you look at the women of the story...look at how many women main characters there are compared to the men. How many strong women who are steadfast in their loyalty..in their hearts...and in their minds. Verna..Anne, Shota, Kahlan, Cara, Nicci, Addie...(the entire cast of Mord Sith...The Entire cast of Sisters of the Light)...Jennsen....The list continues. Why it looks like its women taking most of the abuse...is because our minds directly look at that as evil.. In our culture the rape or tortue of a woman is...the most profound thing that can be done...How many times have you heard the saying (GET THE WOMEN AND CHIDLREN OUT) Women are put on a peda stool weather we like it or not. Look at the rest of the innocent lives taken..entire towns wiped out becuase of greed and anger. Mr. Goodkind doesnt believe people are inharintly evil..he believes that some of their beliefs are..their acts back up those beliefes.. His evil..is the complete lack of reason.

2) Good. Vs. Evil.
I know you stated above that you dont believe in a true evil just as you dont believe in a true good. Zedd, Richard's grandfather, when giving Richard the sword of truth stated that exact same thing. That when you kill with the sword..you see yourself (good) in all your short comings...you see the other (evil) for all of their virtues. He even gave a very good example using his cat... he asked Richard if he thought his cat was evil for killing mice.. Richard said know...and Zedd asked "I wonder what the mice say"

I know there is a huge difference between mice, and men... but the symbolism is there. In Mr. Goodkind...absolute and complete evil is when you have absolutely no choice to do anything you wish to do. I.E. He believes that some of the Muslem states in the Middle East are evil...because their governments forbid people to...talk in numbers... to protest...to read a book... That is his evil. One thing Mr. Goodkind also champions...is forgiveness. He fully believes that you can atone for past evil deeds. I.E. Two of his most faithful subjects...Nicci, and Cara. Both of these women at one point were evil (manipulated tho they were) Richard forgave them, helping them to turn to a path of good.

Richard's biggest weapon against this (evil) is his absolute intellect, as well as his reasoning capabilities. I think thats amazing. He doesnt say that we just need to flat out kill this evil...infact he counters Kahlan's flawed no mercy standpoint...stating that its wrong..if somebody is asking to change..and asking for help they'll help.

3) As far as they way Mr. Goodkind writes...I can see your point. That is a matter of your opinion. Even the most hard core Mr. Goodkind fan has something small they dont like...I'm the same. For me its the way he uses the first quarter of the book to summon everything up from the past.. to me its redundant...does that mean I'm going to state that he's a bad writer?? Hell no.. I think he's amazing.

You say his characters are one dimensional...I say they're quite broad and complex...a matter of opinion really. I'll take Cara...as an example..since she's actually one of my favorite characters in the book. We were first introduced to her in Stone of Tears...she was helping richard get to the Garden of Life... then we met her again at Allyandrial (my god forgive my spelling in that) where she developed more...then she develops more in Temple of the Winds... we see the side of her prior to being taken start coming out...we see her open up and start to love and trust somebody from the outside of Mord Sith (Kahlan)....In Faith of the Fallen...she actually learns to love another...romantically...and if you've read Chainfire...my goodness she's developed completely..and come full circle.. (I wont spoil this...its an amazing part of the book..and if you havent read it...well...you should)

Now I'm not an expert in essay writing..nor am I an expert in writing period.. I hope that I've given you a few answers that you were seeking. I do have quotes written down to support 90% of this stuff..if you'd like I'll post them at your wish.

Thanks for reading this far,
Faithful Mr. Goodkind fan,
Julia

 

[the_faery_queen]

well i read four books. in the first four there were no strong female characters. if they become stronger later on, well its a bit late for me, i have to say!

yes, i was aware richard was raped, but to be honest, i didn't see that when i read it. ( i was told about it afterwards) what i saw was him being tortured. i also read somewhere that goodkind was asked to cut down the torture scene, which rather disturbs me, to think it was longer, before publication. the rape of richard, therefore, was not as clear as the rape of the women at the school, because i really can't remember it. and i know im not the only one who read it and didn't see him being raped. its not like i was deliberately trying to ignore it, either, as back then, with book one, i was interested in the series. it was only by 4 that i was fed up.

i have to disagree with the kahlan being strong element. a strong woman is not one with magic, who spends her life whining for richard every time they're sepearted. in my mind a strong woman is someone who rises above what has happened to her, fights back with what she has. kahlan has magic to start with, that puts her at an advantage, and her behaviour when richard was gone, or her submission to the man she was married to, doesn't speak of a strong woman. and she's the heroine. any other woman, well, i have no idea who half those women are. so they can't have been a strong role by book 4 or i probably would have remembered them (tho it was 6 years ago when i read those books)

the thing is, teh rape was not carried out against kalhan. so if it is showing a truly evil act, teh taking away of control, why is it only done again minor characters that no one cares about? to show the evil of the enemy. but there are SO many other ways to do that. other ways to take away control. for me, having all the women raped, is just lazy writing. oh i must show evil, i know, i will have the women raped. the fact that he then doesn't have any of those characters reacting, even his heroine, who just gets on with it and never seems to think of it, is truly reckless! that's like saying, rape is a truly evil act, but we can forget all about it because its not that important. if it was that evil, kahlan would have been upset about the threats. she would have been scared and in shock after her time in the pit. she never is. that kinda dillutes the idea that rape is a big evil because if it is so big, why does no one ever suffer any after effects from it?

and it isn't just the rape. it is the other things as well. the barbed **** of the monster, kalahan tasting her own blood when she gives oral sex to a man she doesn't like. it's all pointless added things that are just degrading to women, and i have to say, the violence and degradation against women far excells anything the men go through. richard's rape and torture (two times i remember him being tortured) is nothing compared to the gang rape at the school, the sex with the monsters, the threat of rape to kahlan, the rape of her sister. two violent acts against one man, compared to the several against all the women. it doesn't balance particularly, in my mind.

and a character developing doesn't take away from their one dimensional element. granted it is a bonus, to have them develop, but if there are no areas of grey, if the characters cannot be petty and selfish and realistic, then they are still flat images of either good or evil. there has to be depth to make a character real, to make someone care about them. i never cared about any of them, the good were too perfect. i didn't care abotu richard and kahlan and their undying perfect love, or how lovely and pretty and good they all were, because they were boring. without any human depth or emotion or something i could relate to, they were dull and unspired. the evil side was just a joke, evil pedophile rapists on the side of the big evil. nothing human. no man working because he believed in jalangangs cause but was a good man. no, just total evil people with nothing human in them at all. that's not going to make me think, good verses evil, well done good for winning. that's going ot make me think that's just sad. that's just easy. it has nothing realistic in it to make me believe in the characters or waht they're doing.

so yeah, in short, i disagree that the women were strong. kahlan really wasn't
i disagree that the rape shows evil, because tho the act is evil, there is nothing left of the after effect to make me think it had any impact on anhone except me the reader! (who felt sick)

so yeah i disagree. but it was nice having someone with some valid points and textual examples to debate with!

 

[SilverStar]

well i read four books. in the first four there were no strong female characters. if they become stronger later on, well its a bit late for me, i have to say!

Well you should really read the rest of the books up to and definitely including Faith of the Fallen. Its an amazing book that actually answers a lot of your questions.

i have to disagree with the kahlan being strong element. a strong woman is not one with magic, who spends her life whining for richard every time they're sepearted. in my mind a strong woman is someone who rises above what has happened to her, fights back with what she has. kahlan has magic to start with, that puts her at an advantage, and her behaviour when richard was gone, or her submission to the man she was married to, doesn't speak of a strong woman. and she's the heroine. any other woman, well, i have no idea who half those women are. so they can't have been a strong role by book 4 or i probably would have remembered them (tho it was 6 years ago when i read those books)

Kahlan was an extremely large element throughout the series. I know you’ve not read Faith of the Fallen which is really where she shows her teeth but I’ll give you examples in the books you’ve read..all be it 6 years ago..but you still read them…

1) Wizard’s First Rule-
1. The instance with Richard’s brother Michael. Micheal grabbed Kahlan in a very sexual way and
Faught back with everything she had to get out of that situation.
2. The instance with the Mud people she showed great strength in representing the seat of the Mother Confessor. She also showed great depth making some mistakes along the way. With trying to barter her friendship to Richard off to a Mud People bride…
3. She gave herself over to the Con Dar..an ancient magic evoked for the revenge of Richard’s “murder”

2) Stone of Tears-
1. She showed great strength of character to force Richard to go past the madness and put a collar on to save his life.
2. She lead an army of 5,000 recruits to the destruction of an army literally 10 times their size. She implemented many laws through that entire battle scene, and set the stage for future books.
3. She thought Richard was across the boundry to the Old World..and was almost willing to go on with her life and create a new confessor.. OF COURSE she missed Richard…wouldn’t you miss the love of your life?

3) Blood of the Fold- Though Kahlan didn’t play a very strong dominant role in this entire book until the very end when she stood side by side with Richard in the battle with the Blood of the Fold…Other strong female characters were introduced..

4) Temple of the Winds- Another book that she didn’t play a very strong dominant role in at all. Other than her diplomatic side in taking the surrender of the kingdoms becoming part of the D’haran empire.
The rest of the books you didn’t read….but to bring you up to speed. Soul of the Fire was another book that didn’t give Kahlan a strong representation. But it did set the stage for the greatest book in the entire series. AND ACTUALLY NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT!!! There was a rape in that book as well..AND that girl became very strong and independent and. Well I don’t want to ruin it..but you’ll see an answer to your question there… But again I have to reiterate READ FAITH OF THE FALLEN!!

and it isn't just the rape. it is the other things as well. the barbed **** of the monster, kalahan tasting her own blood when she gives oral sex to a man she doesn't like. it's all pointless added things that are just degrading to women, and i have to say, the violence and degradation against women far excells anything the men go through. richard's rape and torture (two times i remember him being tortured) is nothing compared to the gang rape at the school, the sex with the monsters, the threat of rape to kahlan, the rape of her sister. two violent acts against one man, compared to the several against all the women. it doesn't balance particularly, in my mind

A few examples I’ll get to in here…so be patient..I know its not just the rape..but how women are generally treated..Its not the women fighting on the side of good… The oppression of women by the evil side is a key to the evil side having complete lack of Free Will and no ability to choose their life. On the side of good Women are playing key roles in the progression of man kind. If you look at our society today and what we’re fighting in war against over seas..you’ll see the oppression of women exist throughout. Women arent allowed to show their face..much less pick up a book and read.. They’re raped..and traded..as a way of life…Mr. Goodkind took those things and put them into his book to show how evil they really are..to bring to life for the reader how things really are over there. (I know things are like that..because I just got out of the military and was stationed over there)

As far as the barbed penis..another example of symbolism. It represented giving yourself over to absolute evil. You’re willing to go to such lengths to attain power you put yourself at risk..you hurt yourself. it’s a symbol. Yes Mr. Goodkind goes to the extream of symbolism..but it gets his point across none the less. I don’t fault him for it one bit.

As far as men being hurt as well…Richard wasn’t the only one…do you remember Adie and her husband Pell? Also more examples exist in Soul of the Fire… an entire “good” society under absolute oppression. Granted Soul of the Fire is probably my least favorite book..but it showed things..made me understand things…

if the characters cannot be petty and selfish and realistic, then they are still flat images of either good or evil.

The characters are very selfish… and at times can be petty. The selfishness comes out in Faith of the Fallen. AGAIN THE BOOK YOU DIDN’T READ!! LOL You’re making this difficult…but that’s ok..I like a challenge..
i disagree that the rape shows evil, because tho the act is evil, there is nothing left of the after effect to make me think it had any impact on anhone except me the reader! (who felt sick)


Re-read the books and pay close attention to Raina, Berdine, Cara, Nicci, and…Jennsen.. (You don’t meet her until Pillars of Creation)
I understand how the violence makes you feel sick. But turn on the news…Examples of these things are everywhere. How many women are raped every day? Hell today on the news there is a story about a couple SELLING their children to a Mexican family!! Mr. Goodkind takes some of these things we see on the news every day and puts them into his books. We don’t like what we see..we don’t like his use of violence but I understand why he uses it. Its pain. Look beyond the words into what he’s trying to express and you’ll see he isn’t a sadistic S&M obsessed man..I promise.

so yeah i disagree. but it was nice having someone with some valid points and textual examples to debate with!

I love to debate..its my fatal flaw lol. Thanks for continuing with me

it’s a lot of fun. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take me up on the offer of actually reading the rest of the books…and re reading the books you put down 6 years ago. Look for the things I said…and I hope you’ll change you’re mind. If not, I still enjoy talking with people who are at least rational with their likes and dislikes.

 

[the_faery_queen]

nooo. noo. sorry. noo. i will never ever read a goodkind book. i find him disturbing and i find the way he treats his fans, or speaks about them, disturbing. i won't buy another book. never ever,. taht and i still hate all that characters, his writing style and his plot.

can't say i remember any of the accounts you're speaking of about kaghlan. all i remember of her was, waa waa, i miss richard! so that hinders me, i have to say, but if the lasting memory i have of her was whining and weakness, that has to say something abotu her, doesn't it? that nothing she does is vivid enough to last in my memory. i can remember books i read longer ago, and their characters, far more vividly than khalan, and remember examples of their strengths far better.

teh rape issue, again, i disagree. yes rape happens, yes people are sold for sex all the time. its something i rant about a lot! but that isn't the message i get from goodkind. i get, bad girls are raped and sold as slaves (the girls in the school place all bullied the good girl who wasn't raped) and good girls who are raped are traumised by it. i also got, good girls who are threatened with rape, get over it and don't care. now, goodkind can use rape to show how evil the world is, in that way, but that is no excuse for the fact kahlan never seems to be effected by it. she is threatened with it, doesn't care. her half sister is gang raped and taumised, the only comment is, she gave up the throne. that's reckless. that is saying, bad girls get punished with rape. good girls suffer badly and cna't cope. it is also saying, rape is carrie dout by evil people and it doesn't effect good people. because kahlan is NEVER effected. yar claimed goodkind researched rape, if that was true, he would know khalan would have been upset by it! in theory, her wedding night was rape. she didh't want to marry that man, she didn't like him, she didn't want sex with him. yet she had sex with hjim, as she had to, and then gave him a blow job. she submited to her situation and didn't seem to be at all messed up by the prospect of sex with a man who wasn't the one she loved. she resigned herself to her fate, and that's, well, bogus. its unrealistic. it makes her unrelatable to. a perfect woman who just takes all manner of crap without it affecting her in anyway. that's not realistic. and why should i care about woman with no real human tendancies?

so while i would agree, somewhat, that the gang rape scene shows how evil the other side is, the lack of impact of the rape on any major character, even of the girl walking around the school who watched it and didn't seem at all bothered, is reckless and shows that goodkind doens't get rape in the slightest. i dont; think i could watch a bunch of maurading slavers gang raping girls i knew, even if i hated them, and not be upset by it. i dont think i could be threatened with rape and just shrug it off. in fact, i couldn't! i was threatened with it and it still angers me and scares me a little now. to show REAL evil you ahve to show how it impacts people, otherwise it is far too easy to dismiss it. think of the starving people in africa. many people care. many MORe people onyl cared when they saw the pictures. when they saw the suffering. and its the same here. we know those women are suffering but it is harder to care when they're all 'bad' girls. and it doesn't show real evil, it just shows violence. and that could have been carried out in any other way.

and i have to disagree on the barbed cokc thing. tho i can see your point, to me it was an added detail of nastiness, of misogny. why did it have to be barbed? isn't having sex with a monster enough of a sacrifice for the evil magic? why does it have to be an added detail of barbed?

and still no reply on the blow job and menstral blood thing, i notice!

in short, i don't agree with you. i can see your point, but i don't agree. he isn't showing a balanced realistic world. he is showing overexagerated acts of violence. the amjority of which are against women. and yes, women are oppressed, but in this world it is because of RELIGION. there is no religion in goodkind's world, that i recall. the women who can't read, or vote, or drive a car, are in that position because of faith, because their men believe they are inferior. and some of them agree with it. they weren't broken down, gang raped and sold into slavery, they believe their position is secondary because of faith. and that is the same in most other countries where women take second place to men. it is usually got something to do with religion, somewhere. their society is influenced by it, even if the people themselves aren't religious. and if goodkind is showing that, in his book, then, again, he needs to have some realism behind it.

robin hobbs liveship traders has a similiar country. their motto was, if you're no man's woman, you're every man's woman. that is, if no man owned you (as a wife/lover/daughter) then any man could rape you. the women were worth nothing. but there was a realistic setting to it. it wasn't so ott as to end up seeming shallow, as goodkind's excessive rape has. he just seems to do it at EVERY occassion. it looses its shock value. instead of being, oh god, those poor girls, its oh god, another rape victim. i hate to say it, but i was starting to WANT kahlan to be raped just to stop the almost but never quite situations she kept getting into.

in short, i just don't see how gang raping tonnes of women is going to make the world submit. i don't see how it benefits anything, or how it shows anything. it might have shown how evil the evil side was, if we had some real idea of it having an impact on anyone. but we don't. the only witness to the gang rape at the school doesn't seem bothered. the attempted rapes on kahlan, doesn't phase her. the rape is just reckless for its lack of consideration to tis victims, to having any sort of realism. it's just bad. i don't think i will ever agree that it shows anything except goodkind's own person views on women. after all, there are so many other ways to have power over someone else, without rape, without degradation, but that was the path he choose.

 

[SilverStar]

I can honestly see how this effected you. And I'm sorry it did so. I cant help how you interpreted it. I'm also not going to say you're wrong for interpreting it as such. I respect your opinion, though I completely disagree with it. So we'll be counters to a cause. Thats all right. I hope to agree with you at a later date on something else. But thank you for entertaining me...if you want the blow job thing I'd be more than happy to address it... it was gross...but it was done for a purpose. To show desperation. I'd get more into it...but I think it might fall on deff ears. Not that I'm blamming you.
Have a good day fairy!!