Notes from first read of Lord of the Rings

paranoid marvin said:

I agree it is highly unlikely to have been Tolkein's interpretation, but playing devil's advocate, it could be interpreted as such, and would make entire sense as to why the (minor ring) bearers will not use it to bring down Sauron down and why they effectively send the ring into the heart of his domain.
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Again, I'm sure that none of this was Tolkein's intention, but it is interesting (and fun) to speculate on what an alternative LOTR trilogy could have produced.

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And to expand on your idea, maybe Gandalf and Elrond had to go over the sea because otherwise their own rings would corrupt them and lead them to seek power? But then that suggests that they knew that they were being corrupted and were fighting back!

paranoid marvin said:

Aragorn showed he could match minds with Sauron with the Palantir; perhaps his heart was pure enough to wield the Ring

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The palantir is different from ring though - it's just a communicatin device, not something that corrupts of itself.

The palantir was merely a communication device, but Sauron had bent it to his will, meaning that those who used it (eg Saruman) only saw what he willed. Aragorn entered a battle of wills with Sauron when using it - and won. My opinion? Aragorn could have worn the Ring and defeated Sauron - and perhaps not been turned. He was about the onlt one who could.

Sorry Marv, I don't think I'm with you on that one.

Aragorn took hold of the Palantir in full knowledge of what Sauron was using it for. He subverted that by giving Sauron a pre-planned thought, a false idea which he'd decided on before hand. Don't get me wrong, this must have taken an immense effort of will and mental fortitude but if there had been a need for him to do this again or a third time I really believe he would have succumbed to Sauron's power.

Where the ring is concerned, he would probably would have lasted longer than Smeagol but that would still have been his fate, unless the ring killed him first like it did Isildur.

Narkalui said:

Sorry Marv, I don't think I'm with you on that one.

Aragorn took hold of the Palantir in full knowledge of what Sauron was using it for. He subverted that by giving Sauron a pre-planned thought, a false idea which he'd decided on before hand. Don't get me wrong, this must have taken an immense effort of will and mental fortitude but if there had been a need for him to do this again or a third time I really believe he would have succumbed to Sauron's power.

Where the ring is concerned, he would probably would have lasted longer than Smeagol but that would still have been his fate, unless the ring killed him first like it did Isildur.

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Smeagol had the Ring for hundreds of years, and used it on numerous occasions. Bilbo also had the Ring for an extended period, and used it, and even gave it up (relatively) willingly - as did Frodo (who offered it to several others) and of course Sam held it for a time and also gave it up of his own accord. None of them were totally corrupted by it (and even Smeagol showed he still had a redeemable. side). This shows that the Ring was not totally unbeatable; and whilst it would try to deceive and overcome it's bearer, it could be challenged, especially by those with pure hearts.

Perhaps Aragorn could have used the Ring to defeat Sauron, and having bourne it for only a short while and having a good heart and stout mind, then destroyed it in Mount Doom.

At any time he could have asked for the Ring and been willingly given it, but he didn't. This alone proves that the Ring held less influence over him than for other men. Maybe he feared that the Ring would corrupt him, or that it would betray him and find it's way back to it's master in Mordor; but was that any greater a risk then allowing Sam and Frodo to try to get the job done themselves?

Having re-read my posts I think I'm sounding just like Boromir! Of course Aragorn would more than likely have replaced one dark lord with another if he had tried, but it is interesting to speculate

paranoid marvin said:

but was that any greater a risk then allowing Sam and Frodo to try to get the job done themselves?

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But no-one"allowed" them to go alone, as such. The plan, if there was one, was that either Gandalf, or Aragorn or pretty much the entire fellowship should go.
And of course Frodo didn't even want to take Sam originally. He only took him because he couldn't watch Sam drown in the Anduin.
You could say it was fated to be that way if you wanted to start the whole free will/predestination argument, but I'd rather avoid that. (I expect JRRT struggled with that a bit too.)

farntfar said:

But no-one"allowed" them to go alone, as such. The plan, if there was one, was that either Gandalf, or Aragorn or pretty much the entire fellowship should go.
And of course Frodo didn't even want to take Sam originally. He only took him because he couldn't watch Sam drown in the Anduin.
You could say it was fated to be that way if you wanted to start the whole free will/predestination argument, but I'd rather avoid that. (I expect JRRT struggled with that a bit too.)

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Aragorn decided to follow Merry and Pippin. He could have easily caught up with Frodo and Sam and either accompanied them or asked them to follow him to Minas Tirith - but he didn't. He also must have realised that Smeagol would follow them, putting them in more danger.

It is interesting to suppose on why he did this. Did he and Gandalf (and perhaps even Elrond) decide that they would allow fate to take it's course, or that it may be better for a force to gather at Minas Tirith to deceive Sauron? Or perhaps Aragorn looked into Galadriel's mirror and saw the victory of Sam and Frodo at Mount Doom as a possible future outcome? Or maybe his senses told him that evil inevitably could not conquer good and that somehow they would succeed.

It would answer the question as to why Gollum was allowed to pass through Lothlorien (and perhaps even Rivendell). Why else allow someone who could quite possibly murder or berray members of the fellowship?

But tbh I like to think of Tolkein's trilogy as the ultimate good vs evil with the complete underdog defeating the mightiest being in Midfle Earth. To read it any other way takes away some of tbe innocence and enjoyment of the story. But it is interesting that as a cynical middle-aged adult I can take a view of LOTR that I never could have imagined as a child.

paranoid marvin said:

Aragorn decided to follow Merry and Pippin. He could have easily caught up with Frodo and Sam and either accompanied them or asked them to follow him to Minas Tirith - but he didn't.

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paranoid marvin said:

Or maybe his senses told him that evil inevitably could not conquer good and that somehow they would succeed.

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Yes I think the ultimately good triumphs thing is the most likely explanation - as when Gandalf says Bilbo was "meant" to find the ring and that's a comforting thought, I think Aragorn feels that fate has taken its course, and he has to let Frodo and Sam go alone - that it has been ordained by Fate. Also, of course, Aragorn feels his own fate lies at Minas Tirith.

But I don't think Aragorn ever thought he could take the ring and use it for good.