Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi
- Thread starter Vince W
- Start date
I'm assuming the Jedi will always prevail - as will the Sith - due to the abundance of holocrons all over the galaxy.
Rebels has now introduced the concept of neutral Force users like Ahsoka, and Tom Baker occupies the mid-ground between light and dark. As Rebels is considered canon, I can see a lot of data from that making its way into the new sequels.
Also, there seems to be a preponderence of focus on the Mandalorians and the Dark Sabre in recent times, so I'm wondering if something around that will pop up.
pH
Rebels has now introduced the concept of neutral Force users like Ahsoka, and Tom Baker occupies the mid-ground between light and dark. As Rebels is considered canon, I can see a lot of data from that making its way into the new sequels.
Also, there seems to be a preponderence of focus on the Mandalorians and the Dark Sabre in recent times, so I'm wondering if something around that will pop up.
pH
Judderman
The Iceman cometh
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- Apr 20, 2010
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Yes, and so it implies to me there will be a lot of focus on Luke in this movie. Will his death be as well scripted as the Last of the Mohicans death? He may make it through to the end of this film but I presume all Jedis and Sith types will be gone by the end of part 9 after a battle between Rey and Snoke. Probably with a closing scene of yet another special child left on a remote world..
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That's a rather bleak future for Rey and Luke.
Boneman
Well-Known Member
Yeah, those life-enhancing kalurians they find in the blood gotta be passed on... maybe Luke is the last Jedi in VIII, but Rey becomes one in IX (paralleling Luke himself in episode V...)
Heir
Psychopathic Chosen One
The opening crawl in TFA calls Luke 'The Last Jedi'. Yoda also calls him that in ROTJ and he most certainly is. Rey is not a Jedi, Finn (for people who for some reason keep saying it) is certainly not a Jedi. BB-8 is not a Jedi (debatable, I know, but I have tons of evidence).
The main way I see this title being relevant, is if Luke dies before he can train her properly, or (most likely) not train her in the ways of the Jedi. But instead by balancing things out. It should be noted that Snoke is not a Sith, and according to the Wiki, is interested in a balance between both light and dark side whereas the Emperor was all dark side and outright Sith.
With all this in mind, it wouldn't make sense for Rey to be trained only in the Light. For starters, it's not very modern writing. The current trend is grey morality. If this Star Wars is for a more modern audience, it makes sense to follow this trend.
But secondly, she would never be able to properly face an opponent who understands the value of both, whilst she only utilises one.
If Anakin really did bring balance to the Force in ROTJ, it would be extremely undermining of the original films to go against that. Luke is the last of the Jedi, the and that's how it should remain. If he dies, the original trilogy, the prequels, and all their teachings die with him, allowing for a new era of true balance to come in. It would be great if it turns out that Anakin brought balance to the force through Luke, and Episode 8 could be the realisation of that.
Whether this will happen or not is to be seen. But it's a lot more satisfying to me then simply saying, "Rey is the last Jedi, because Luke taught her the ways of the Jedi, and then died because we want to parallel Ben Kenobi and Yoda".
The main way I see this title being relevant, is if Luke dies before he can train her properly, or (most likely) not train her in the ways of the Jedi. But instead by balancing things out. It should be noted that Snoke is not a Sith, and according to the Wiki, is interested in a balance between both light and dark side whereas the Emperor was all dark side and outright Sith.
With all this in mind, it wouldn't make sense for Rey to be trained only in the Light. For starters, it's not very modern writing. The current trend is grey morality. If this Star Wars is for a more modern audience, it makes sense to follow this trend.
But secondly, she would never be able to properly face an opponent who understands the value of both, whilst she only utilises one.
If Anakin really did bring balance to the Force in ROTJ, it would be extremely undermining of the original films to go against that. Luke is the last of the Jedi, the and that's how it should remain. If he dies, the original trilogy, the prequels, and all their teachings die with him, allowing for a new era of true balance to come in. It would be great if it turns out that Anakin brought balance to the force through Luke, and Episode 8 could be the realisation of that.
Whether this will happen or not is to be seen. But it's a lot more satisfying to me then simply saying, "Rey is the last Jedi, because Luke taught her the ways of the Jedi, and then died because we want to parallel Ben Kenobi and Yoda".
Culhwch
Lost Boy
I like your post a lot, Heir - I think it's definitely well-reasoned and believable.
This is the only thing I question:
Not that I disagree, and Rogue One definitely went down this path. But TFA not so much - it fairly definitively eschewed shades of grey for absolutes of good and evil, right and wrong. The Resistance are the good guys, the First Order are the bad guys (seriously Nazi-like, world destroying bad guys). If they plan on painting Snoke as more than just an evil, Emperor-esque bad guy, it's going to be a task. Kylo Ren, on the other hand - I can definitely see a conflict building there. And that will definitely be more interesting, unless they simply rehash Vader's storyline.
This is the only thing I question:
Not that I disagree, and Rogue One definitely went down this path. But TFA not so much - it fairly definitively eschewed shades of grey for absolutes of good and evil, right and wrong. The Resistance are the good guys, the First Order are the bad guys (seriously Nazi-like, world destroying bad guys). If they plan on painting Snoke as more than just an evil, Emperor-esque bad guy, it's going to be a task. Kylo Ren, on the other hand - I can definitely see a conflict building there. And that will definitely be more interesting, unless they simply rehash Vader's storyline.
Heir
Psychopathic Chosen One
Thanks! And to be honest, I kept pausing as I wrote that part, because I was thinking the exact same thing. When I rewatch Episode 7 and I see them destroy the planets with Deathstar 3, I struggle to justify it as anything other than, as you said, 'Nazi-like'.
Honestly though, I'm hinging my hopes on that slice of information from the Wiki. But here's my two main reasons why I think Snoke (hopefully) won't end up like the Emperor:
1. He appears an entire film earlier than the Emperor giving him two full films of development, with no need for introduction. The Emperor only physically appeared in the last film, so giving him a simple objective made more sense. Also, different times, different directors.
2. He has an apprentice who needs further training. If Rey is trained in this film in parallel to Kylo, this is already potential to step away from the original trilogy, and do something interesting. Instead of just showing how different they are, they could show how in many ways, they're similar. Either way, this simple fact means he has to be an actual character, a mentor, with a philosophy to teach. The Emperor could just lounge back and shoot lightning because all his work had been done in the prequels (where he has more character).
Now the best way to ruin all of that, is to not show Kylo being trained, make it all happen in the gap between the films (where undoubtedly novels and comics will show us the training instead), and he appears a fully-fledged... erm... Knight?
All that being said, the Skywalker Saga so far is being used for nostalgia purposes. But, as I (perhaps foolishly) argue in it's defence, TFA is the first in a trilogy. I think we just get a bit more worried, because people were so burnt by the prequels. Hopefully they won't be again.
I think gray morality has been done to death. There is real good and evil in the world and there's nothing wrong with bucking the trend and getting back to it.
I wouldn't assume too much about what Snoke is or is not. That is really going to be up to the filmmakers, and anything in print that disagrees with the films will simply stop being canon.
I wouldn't assume too much about what Snoke is or is not. That is really going to be up to the filmmakers, and anything in print that disagrees with the films will simply stop being canon.
I always had the strong impression that Luke spent a period really reading the manual between Empire and Return. He is a serious, more confident and dangerous person than just getting a hand replaced would explain. He switched to Jedi gear, dumped the blaster and started expressing talents not shown before. Even if it happened without direct instruction from Yoda or Ben, it still happened.
When a dark force character says "complete your training" it is less likely to be "training" as a test or some brutal ritual that cements their madness.
Culhwch
Lost Boy
For some reason I'm now picturing a Kylo Ren training montage set to 'You're The Best Around' from The Karate Kid...
Overread
Searching for a flower
The problem is that the Wiki isn't the film; in the film you are left with no questions about the Sith; there are two. One master, one inept, but in training apprentice. Now the mistakes of the latter and his more childish mannerisms suggest that either he was internally battling light and dark internally, however it could also hint at some kind of grey; but honestly I think that's going too complex. That film wasn't complex, it was a million miles from a complex story.
I think its a face value film; looking deeper just shows cracks.
Jedi is an order and way of thinking and training and life. You can easily have light side users who use the light side of the force who are not Jedi; heck the new order could even be as good and strict as the old; or might be that Luke uncovered teachings of working the force that were unpopular or dis-guarded but offer a different path.
Don't forget Jedi are inherently isolationists. Sith appear to have a natural desire to lead others, they build armies and rule worlds. Jedi appear to only provide a balancing force out of a sense of duty and if you give them half a chance they do what Yoda, Obiwan and Luke do. They run and isolate themselves. Without an order of Jedi to keep them in check it appears that they can become lost in themselves, almost to a selfish level to the universe around them.
It might be that their way of interacting with the force and their way of thinking and training produces such a phenomenon; it could even be partly trained into them so that any Jedi who did find themselves isolated from the Order would, rather than interfere, settle down into a hermits lifestyle. That, of course, is a major problem when you're trying to kick-start a new organised force, because you are going to be heavily limited on numbers for a very long time.
I think its a face value film; looking deeper just shows cracks.
Jedi is an order and way of thinking and training and life. You can easily have light side users who use the light side of the force who are not Jedi; heck the new order could even be as good and strict as the old; or might be that Luke uncovered teachings of working the force that were unpopular or dis-guarded but offer a different path.
Don't forget Jedi are inherently isolationists. Sith appear to have a natural desire to lead others, they build armies and rule worlds. Jedi appear to only provide a balancing force out of a sense of duty and if you give them half a chance they do what Yoda, Obiwan and Luke do. They run and isolate themselves. Without an order of Jedi to keep them in check it appears that they can become lost in themselves, almost to a selfish level to the universe around them.
It might be that their way of interacting with the force and their way of thinking and training produces such a phenomenon; it could even be partly trained into them so that any Jedi who did find themselves isolated from the Order would, rather than interfere, settle down into a hermits lifestyle. That, of course, is a major problem when you're trying to kick-start a new organised force, because you are going to be heavily limited on numbers for a very long time.
You don't think Ben and Yoda running for their lives had anything to do with it? The Jedi seemed like a pretty chummy bunch with their big clubhouse on a crowded planet before the Empire.
Overread
Searching for a flower
That had an initial part in it yes; however thereafter both go into basic hibernation. Obiwan hangs around Luke, but is never more than "that old guy who comesby some times"; meanwhile Yoda goes into full hiding. Considering the Rebellion exists and the fact that it was many years, enough years that they were basically thought to be dead; their activities are very reserved. They essentially remain in hiding until the situation forces them out.
The main problem being: If Luke was a potential super being with Vader/Emperor beating power, why drop him off with his uncle and name him Skywalker? Luke is really not hidden from Vader at all, it is more like there was a strong expectation that Vader would leave well enough alone.
The prequels made a mess of a great many things, including killing the mother that Leia says she remembered, but I really think that Vader's fall from grace became a much less subtle thing than originally implied. I think Anakin was supposed to be a little more of a Jedi trying to do the right things but using the Force the wrong way, and that Kenobi's motivation to kill him was maybe a little more expedient than immediate.
But by the time the prequels were actually made, Padme dies in childbirth, the Jedi all dress like they live on Tatooine and Anakin is murdering children because of a vague concern that modern medicine was completely helpless in the face of his baby-momma's pregnancy.
I really think the original story line had much less direct Sith/Jedi conflict, and that the Jedi were all but wiped out by the turmoil leading up to the Empire, rather than being directly and obviously targeted. The Jedi become too rare to be effective and the last of them retire from the conflict. The Empire's powers and abuses grow slowly over time (they didn't even dissolve the Senate until A New Hope) and Vader doesn't start to be really bad until after being cyborged for many years - warped by pain, of having to give up his love because of his horrible disfigurement (that he sees as his own fault) and by continual contact with the Emperor, who also becomes more warped and less human after years of Sith-dom.
What we got was something cartoonishly black and white, instead of a treatise on the more subtle effects of the corruption of power.
Stewart Hotston
Well-Known Member
In French, the title is plural...les dernier Jedi. i.e. Jedi in this case implies more than one. So it's not simply Luke.
Trailer! Trailer! Trailer! YEEEEEEEEEE
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-first-trailer-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-here-1794299927
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-first-trailer-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi-is-here-1794299927
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