Setting up a fight?

Hey guys - my WIP has a fight scene I'm working on currently, and I'm drawing a blank as to how to structure it. Need some fresh ideas.

Has anyone read anything fight-wise that really stuck with them? Emotional as much or more than physically brutal? Looking for some good examples, in sci-fi/fantasy ideally, but I'll look at anything.

WIP is a sci-fi/romance, and there are paranormal abilities involved, if that helps anyone.

When you say a fight, do you mean a battle, a riot, a group of men having had too many drinks, or a one-on-one martial arts bout, or none of the above? Structure will depend on how many and where to a great extent, I'd have thought.

Our own Jo Zebedee does violence and torture exceptionally well and I think she's one of he best I've ever read.

If you don't mind kinky then Kim Knox

Perfume from Patrick Suskind was brutal and emotional so much so I couldn't read it all.

And I have to say the best ever for me is Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer. The fights and moments where he faces physical pain have stuck with me through my life.

Less physical is my favourite book Mist Over Pendle by Robert Neill - he has some cat fights in that. But they're not often physical.

The Judge said:

When you say a fight, do you mean a battle, a riot, a group of men having had too many drinks, or a one-on-one martial arts bout, or none of the above? Structure will depend on how many and where to a great extent, I'd have thought.

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This particular fight is one person attacking another, and then allies of the first person are drawn in - ultimately a big group fight. It's also an indoor fight, in a college classroom.

Your overall structure is also going to depend on what kind of perspective you used for the rest of the book. Something written in first person would naturally be more inclined towards an individual experience, regardless of how big the fight actually is, whereas third person (omniscient) would have a more organised view on the fight.

For example, look at this HEMA sparring match. You can see how, though the participants try to keep an organised view, they occasionally fail and get hit by an opponent from the side whom they completely missed. The human mind simply cannot register everything, especially during something chaotic like a brawl or fight. Tunnel vision and all that probably apply too. Not just to medieval battles, but also to a one-on-one barfight. For example, one might miss a barstool and trip over it.

Compare that to what the camera sees. It has no issue staying on top of everything that is happening in this sparring session due to its position above the battle. This is the difference between a distant third person and a close third/first person view.

I personally feel that an appropriate sense of chaos is important. You don't want to do too little, because fights are very rarely a neat and clean thing, but you don't want your piece to be a single blur of neverending chaos because that makes it unreadable.

An example of someone who I think did it right: I really like Joe Abercrombie's way of writing fights, as his characters feel believably chaotic during these fight scenes. They trip over roots and almost stab themselves in the process, yet their frantic thought processes show that they do know what they are doing.

DZara said:

Has anyone read anything fight-wise that really stuck with them? Emotional as much or more than physically brutal?

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Violence for Writers by Rory Miller - a great resource.

I second much of what Ragander has said re chaos and POV. Obviously for the one-on-one the POV character is going to have a clearer view of what is going on, what his opponent is doing and his reactions -- but unless they are both trained in some kind of martial art, or they're using paranormal abilities from the start, there's likely to be a good deal of grappling and flailing rather than anything dramatic such as immediate knock out blows. Once everyone has piled in, things will be a lot more chaotic, and more likely to be something of a blur for the POV character, particularly if he/she has received any blows to the head. Since it's a classroom, I'd use things there as weapons, but I'd structure it that the fight escalated, so fists first, then lighter possible weapons/defences, before moving onto the chairs/desks.

I was also going to suggest Abercrombie as good at fight scenes, and I've enjoyed the fighting in the Heirs of the Blade books by Adrian Tchaikovsky, though that's more individual swordfighting and pitched battles so possibly not as helpful. I've been trying to think of another book which had a lot of fighting in which although swords again, might be better, but my memory has gone on the blink as to book and author. I'll go and have a look at my shelves in a bit, see if that jogs the name out.

There is a book called Writing Fantasy Heroes (edited by Jason M Waltz) and within it there is a chapter by Brandon Sanderson on writing cinematic fight scenes. Its quite good advice and I shall summarise it in a moment (I'm re-reading as I go) but reading the whole thing would be preferable if you can get your hands on it.

Personally, I pretty much never point to fantasy fight scenes when asked for good fight scenes, I point to historical authors. I don't there's anyone out there who surpasses Bernard Cornwell (his Warlord Chronicles intersects fantasy with history) and Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire stands well up there too. For me, this is because historical authors seem less focused on showing off the characters and their power and more on giving us the historical experience of what it would have been like in a fight like that - the tiredness, the chaos, the smells etc.etc. Good writing is 90pc of the time about illustrating what a character is going through and that's as true with an action scene as anything else.

Sanderson's advice

1) Clarity
- Setting up the scene first
- Maintaining the focus on the hero/show where people are in relation to each other

2) Immersion
- Give a short simple description to let us know where we are at the beginning

3) Character
- Channel the fight through the character's emotions and motives


Something he talks a lot about as well that's not in those points and is crucial is pacing. Short sentences are clear. But they take longer to read. They slow down the pace. Slow fights are boring fights. Nobody wants long, flowery battles, in which multi-comma sentences describe everything, and it runs on forever, as they're a bit crap too, and definitely the enemy of clarity. You need to strike the balance. And if you really want to hammer home a point?

Single sentence paragraph.


Reading it back, Jim Butcher has clearly been given the same advice, particularly about the emotions and motives. It can be taken too far and I think that happens from time to time in Butcher's books. It becomes cliche and shiny-Hollywood-feeling. I like my fights to feel dirty. But as a basic starting point, its a good place to start.

edit: If you want a fight in an environment with a lot of improvised implements (such as a classroom might offer), Night Watch by Terry Pratchett has a decent one.

The Big Peat said:

Sanderson's advice

1) Clarity
- Setting up the scene first
- Maintaining the focus on the hero/show where people are in relation to each other

2) Immersion
- Give a short simple description to let us know where we are at the beginning

3) Character
- Channel the fight through the character's emotions and motives

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^this

Here is an extended lecture by Sanderson (1:20) from his BYU creative writing class back in 2012 where he discusses fight scenes, touching on the same points @The Big Peat summarized but in a little more detail:

If you don't have 90 minutes to spare, then see the video notes to jump ahead to the specific bits about fight scenes.

I find that fight scenes are most believable and enjoyable when an author leads the reader into the fight by showing that any other outcome would seem unlikely and unnatural to the story and the characters involved. And, for me, the only way to do that is to make certain the emotions that bring about the conflict are so powerful, there is no logical way to avoid the fight. But it takes set-up and foreshadowing.

The emotional motivation has to be so powerfully explosive that the reader longs for the fight to take place. If a writer can achieve such heightened emotion without faking it, they will have little difficulty in dragging their reader -- fists raised and ready to strike -- directly into the conflict.

I think that Roger Zelazney's Chronicles of Amber have many great fight scenes, and the setups are often along the lines of what @Ronald T. mentioned above; that is to say that no other option is a viable path for the story to progress.

There is one scene where Corwin (the MC) is forced due to a misunderstanding to combat his brother Benedict, who is widely considered the best swordsman in existence. The fear and panic the normally cool and collected Corwin feels as Benedict pursues him, knowing he stands absolutely no chance of beating him in a fair fight, is almost palpable. And yet, when it occurs, it feels like the only way it could have happened. That's the way to do it, IMO.

Fight scenes I have problems writing fight scenes too. What I did for this problem was I went to this forum and asked some questions and digested all that I could. Then I went to YouTube and look for sword fights and martial arts fights.

One of the best sword fight scenes I think is from the Robin Hood movie with Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone. There were some others that I looked at too.

My other inspiration for fight scenes is professional wrestling. Yes I know I know professional wrestling is fake. However the wrestlers that are really good at it can make you suspend belief. And isn't this the idea of fantasy after all to make us suspend belief.

If you want to follow this lead I would suggest that you go to YouTube and type in Ric Flair, Nick Bochwinkle, Ricky Steamboat, Rowdy Roddy Piper, and Rick Martel.

The movie "Princes Bride" has one of the best set-ups for a fight scene that I've ever seen. Inigo Montoya tells The Dread Pirate Roberts, about his need to kill the man who killed his father. In the first half of the movie, Inigo states, "When I find the six-fingered man, I'll walk up to him and say ... Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!" To my mind, there are few scenes in a movie that make the watcher want a character to succeed more than that one.

Ronald T. said:

The emotional motivation has to be so powerfully explosive that the reader longs for the fight to take place.

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This is a great comment. Hard to do but if you can achieve it then great. I love those movie moments where your just howling at the screen "just hit him!"

My personal advice - I've don a ton of fight "sports" from martial arts to fencing to large scale reenactment (Battle of Hastings) and airsoft (MOD training village assaults with vehicles). I've never been in "real" combat, in that I'm not or have never been a soldier or police officer or similar, so I've never experienced the genuine fear of death reality of a real battle. But chaos is the word for any fight involving more than two people. Even in what should be very structured shieldwall style viking battles I've wound up behind the opposing line (both deliberately and accidentally), been flanked and have outflanked and lost track of who's on what side. I've hit and been hit by people my own team. Usually, you don't get "killed" by the person you are concentrating on. You get jumped form behind, or the side, or you distract someone while one of your mates jumps them.

Put that in a crowded room with obstacles, chairs, desks, etc then you've got complete chaos. In your described situation no one is giving orders, there's no plan.

You mention college - do they wear uniforms? How easily identifiable and differentiated are the combatants?

Martin,

In your final sentence, you ask a question about college. Was that question meant for me? If so, I'm at somewhat of a loss to respond. Sorry!

No, sorry. To the original poster. I was just thinking that one of the things that adds to chaos in combat is no clear friend or foe identification. The risk of friendly fire increases. If the characters here are all in some kind of house uniform, team colours etc then friend/foe identification is simpler. If they are all casually dressed then a big raging melee is more chaotic.

Seconded to some other people; it depends, heavily, on what sort of fight it is and how skilled the combatants are. I'm told that in the far-off days of duelling with swords (particularly in eras when armour wasn't worn in duels) a serious fight might be over in a couple of seconds. If someone has just been slashed with a katana or run through with a rapier, it's over.

I have no martial arts training, but I suspect that the same is true of martial arts and military unarmed combat - if it's a serious fight, not a sparring match.

Of course, a fight like this would make poor narrative and even worse TV or movie footage. Except that if you can describe, well, the lead up to the clash of arms, then that might be quite exciting. David Weber did that quite well, in one of the Honor Harrington stories.

My measly two cents. Find some writers who do it well. I read Joe Abercrombie and really liked how he wrote action and fight scenes.

For me, they are a challenge, but here is my process:

I draw it out. Using X's and O's that I "name" and whatnot. I draw arrows and see how the physical space will look and where people will go. What character will SEE or NOTICE what from his/her perspective. Will Charlie over here notice what's going on way over there where John is? (That sort of thing.)

Once I get that game plan down, I write up a very terse/sparse outline or sequence of events. Charlie moves in from the left and draws his weapon. Bad guys react in THIS manner. Just kind of a list. Then I work from that, seeing what I need to include and actually spell out in detail and what is assumed. Having it all outlined for ME helps.

After I get the action in and have a solid section, I ask myself if I will have any internalization or any moments of thought or thinking where I am close into a character's POV. I will add those in last. Those tend to really add dimension to a scene, to build tension, and to create urgency. I read the scene in Game of Thrones to my students (when I am teaching them about fight scenes), where Arya is working with her swordmaster, Syrio, and the Lannister guards come for them. If you just took the action and dialogue, it would make a very short scene. But Arya worries for her master. She considers her reaction. She filters what is going on through her POV.

In short, I write a skeleton first, then fill in, flesh out, etc.

I am not, in any way, an expert on martial arts, swordplay or fighting. I describe things the best I can (and reading other works is helpful). Most authors don't write in technical terms like, "I lunge perfectly with this X maneuver and then do Y maneuver in a perfect twirl" and that sort of thing. Fight scenes can be lumbering, violent, chaotic.

I do have a friend or two look it over to make sure it looks okay, one that has some experience with weapons to make sure logistics aren't embarrassing.

I found this to be helpful.

Elements of Fiction Writing: Conflict and Suspense: James Scott Bell: 0035313653513: Amazon.com: Books

This one always tickled me;

If WWI was a bar fight…