They was or They were.

Wiglaf said:
AnyaKimlin, you were blogging. I'm speaking to you, I know who you are, and I use the plural verb. It seems to me they were would still be the best choice. They was would be as bad as zie (weird to say) and almost as bad as hir (a homophone of her is just silly), in my personal opinion.
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I understand that hir is pronounced he-uh (hear) not as a homophone of her.

I just think it's a poor excuse to use it differently to he/she when its being used for a person without a determined gender just because it feels uncomfortable or sounds wrong. A third gender pronoun is needed in 2017 and at present the English language has a number of unofficial options but nothing official.

Given I'm bringing out an urban fantasy with an elderly gay man in the main character role and pitching a sit-com based on Best Possible Taste (the story this is from) I'd rather err on the side of being inclusive.
 
Wiglaf said:
...Edit: Actually, I could probably get over zie was or another non-homophone pronoun much easier than they was. I just don't want to learn a new pronoun, but I guess I could get over it if there was some agreement and it wasn't ridiculously silly sounding and was one syllable.
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Don't know if you caught the edit.
If hir is pronounced that way, it's still a homophone of another word and I would want to rhyme it with fir/fur, stir, her. At least with zie, I could adapt. (Zie is what they chose at my university when the English department nixed singular they.)
 
Wiglaf said:
Don't know if you caught the edit.
If hir is pronounced that way, it's still a homophone of another word and I would want to rhyme it with fir/fur, stir, her. At least with zie, I could adapt. (Zie is what they chose at my university when the English department nixed singular they.)
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I think anything we use is going to sound ridiculous and horrible and wrong at first, including the singular they. The change in the way society views gender/sex etc has been swift. There's a lot of emotions attached to gender some are cultural and some are physical. We use night and knight without any problem although they're homophones. Hir might work better as hire.

And I think that's my point about "they was" and why last night "they were" also felt wrong. I'm referring to an individual and they deserve to be treated as such.
 
They were. But personally I'd re-write the sentence to sidestep it entirely.

A smile ghosted around Nick's mouth as they fought a desire to join in.

Personally I'm not in favour of using they for a singular pronoun. I prefer a made-up word to the sorts of problems this thread illustrates.
 
Unfortunately I'm facing the issue now and they appears to be the best option. At least until there is something more official but then we may become more comfortable with they over time. Words do change their use and evolve.
 
As a grammar pedant, I wish they would pick one of the other weird words, because "they" grates on me as a singular. Any of the other words would eventually take hold in the lexicon and we'd forget all about the time before we had it. We just need a movement to get behind one choice and use it until it catches on everywhere. Really, all it would take is one good TV show or personality to say it, and everyone else would start parroting like they do with everything else. :D
 
AnyaKimlin said:
Unless hir or one of the other gender neutral pronouns becomes more popular and is accepted I'm going to use they/their/them.
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I think I'd use hir. Languages are constantly changing, and they do so because we change the way we use them. I see no need to wait for the rest of the world to catch up. Use the word that's most appropriate to your story, and let that small act be one more step in the direction of getting us a new word we need.
 
Allen Teasdale said:
I think I'd use hir. Languages are constantly changing, and they do so because we change the way we use them. I see no need to wait for the rest of the world to catch up. Use the word that's most appropriate to your story, and let that small act be one more step in the direction of getting us a new word we need.
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That for me is they was. After 24 hours of using it is starting too feel natural. They is the one my 12 year old and her friends use most comfortably they think hir etc is a bit sci-fi. I think, but could be wrong, that the singular they will win out because the others appear to be a bit middle aged :)
 
AnyaKimlin said:
That's my personal issue. Nick should be she. The family is transitioning and it's the first time Nick has appeared as she. It's from his wife's POV and she's not ready for she so is looking at the alternatives. She can't pronounce hir (or other similar), it is too impersonal so the final one is they.

I wrote this on my blog last night after an awful lot of reading about it:

Getting the pronouns right when talking about any other transwoman is easy, peasy lemon squeezy but when it comes to Mr Kimlin I have deep entrenched habits and emotions involved. I’m not ready to have a wife yet. At home it’s easy when Mr Kimlin is Mr Kimlin I call him he and when Amanda is in a dress I call her she. It gets more complicated when he has chosen a halfway house and he’s neither one nor the other.

Today when writing Best Possible Taste: The Grand Reveal I had a dilemma. Steph isn’t ready to call Nick she any more than I was at that stage. She settled for the gender neutral they. All went well until I got to this sentence: At the corners of Nick’s mouth a smile was ghosting and they was fighting a desire to join in. After what felt like a long time she pulled herself together enough to ask, “For goodness sake, Nick, help me up.”

My first natural reaction was to write they were. It sounds right doesn’t it? But that’s because I had never really used they as a singular pronoun for a known and named person or character before. It caused me to pause. After talking to Banana Bug who is entirely comfortable with they as an alternative gender neutral pronoun and reading up online it appears to be a language issue in flux. As a result grammar rules appear to be changing in some quarters. They was vs they were became a serious issue and it is why Best Possible Taste was late going up tonight.

I have a family member who is intersexed and I know that around one in fifteen hundred babies is born neither entirely male nor female and I know that children have been maimed in the past when they’ve been altered so we can tick a legal gender box. This is as common as people with red hair yet we rarely talk about it.

We need a singular and gender neutral pronoun. The choices in English are it, they or hir (and other similar propositions). Hir and its associates are not yet well known and I’m not yet comfortable with using them plus I struggle to pronounce them. At the stage in the journey Steph is at it's unlikely she is o fay with them yet. The use of it as the pronoun is rude and impersonal. Neither Mr Kimlin nor Nick are objects. I’m left with they.

In Best Possible Taste and Kidology I have taken the decision to use they as a singular pronoun, but also to use it as he/she. Yes they was sounds horrible but the more I’ve written and thought about it they was has become less horrible and I’m warming to it.
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Maybe, in this instance, since people are trying on the new pronoun for size you could point out it's awkwardness, have it italicised or something so that the reader pauses and thinks about it. At least then people will know it's not bad grammar or something.

Doesn't really help in a general sense tho. :/

Definitely not 'it' tho. I quite like Xe and similar, but I wonder if that doesn't cover it for people who don'd identify strongly as any gender because the X says cross, as in mix of, genders to me. Complicated.
 
If we are going to have new words, we need people to just start using them. And if you are writing books with these genders in, then be one of those people to start it becoming normal.
Personaly, I don't like the use of they in that context because it just looks like bad grammar, new nouns would be better.
 
cgsmith said:
Maybe, in this instance, since people are trying on the new pronoun for size you could point out it's awkwardness, have it italicised or something so that the reader pauses and thinks about it. At least then people will know it's not bad grammar or something.

.
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I linked to a blog post on it rather than interrupt the story. I'm hoping that's enough.
 
cgsmith said:
lol, I was thinking this would be on paper. The modern world ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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No lol - I'm writing a blog from the point of view of a woman whose husband announces he wants to be a woman and she's trying to work out how to become a lesbian to make it work between them, because the only woman she's ever liked that way is Joan Armatrading.
 
In older language "that" is used instead of "it".
If you went a bit Gothic you could use thine.
 
If they was feels right to you, Anya, use it. There must have been the same problem with you once, but we don't find it difficult to distinguish you (singular) and you (plural) now, because we use the appropriate form of the verb.
 
AnyaKimlin said:
When I am using they as a singular gender neutral pronoun is it they was or they were?

Around the corners of Nick’s mouth a smile was ghosting and they was fighting a desire to join in.

Was feels unnatural but were also feels wrong as this is singular.
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Around the corners of Nick's mouth a smile was ghosting as they were fighting a desire to join in.

Substituted "as" for "and" and went with "they were" to properly alter the sentence.

If one were reading this sentence alone then the reader would conclude that Nick is starting to smile as he and his companions are perhaps hesitating to join in on whatever action is being considered.

If that is the context you were shooting for then this is the correct sentence structure.

I hope that helps. Cheers!
 
ErikB said:
Around the corners of Nick's mouth a smile was ghosting as they were fighting a desire to join in.

Substituted "as" for "and" and went with "they were" to properly alter the sentence.
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could be: Around the corners of Nick's mouth a smile was ghosting as they fought their desire to join in.

Your sentence still has the dilemma about whether Nick's pronoun is they was or they were.
 
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