Best Robert Heinlein novel?

After browsing through the discussions here about various things Heinlein and having finished the two volumes about his life and writing I think the it is relevant to note the following letter of note.

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/10/help-from-heinlein.html

This not only highlights the the trove of ideas the man had under his hat; but I think it shows much of the thought that went into his stories and exemplifies the what if portion; and then he finds the players that work best with that to both facilitate and often turn a notion on it's head. I think that its fair to say that many if not all of his characters would have beliefs and attributes he might not fully endorse; but they were the most interesting to facilitate the story and I think it reckless to assume he endorsed ideas merely because he put so much effort into the writing and the building of that character.

Sure there are many attributes and ideals of an author that leak through and sometimes show up as them working out thought experiments within the realm of their own beliefs; but the whole thing would begin to fall apart if they stayed only within the realm of their own personal arguments. There are some works out there that would definitely give me pause if they represented direct reflection of the author's beliefs.

That much said I think most of Heinlein's work is so good because he was constantly mulling over these what ifs and trying to turn them on their head. It's probably a shame that there just isn't enough time to get them (the what ifs) all on paper.
 
cymric said:
my fav is starship troopers. Heinlen accurlately predicts the problems of juvenile crime that we now face in society and offers a well thought polotical system.
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I like stranger in a strange land.
 
I was scratching my head on page 5 of this thread wondering if I'd see it and there is was, all the way in on page 6 - The Puppet Masters.

Judge away! It was (until last year) the only Heinlen book I'd read and that was after I'd watched the Sutherland movie... Loved the idea but the film fell flat and boy was I impressed with the source material. That of course was back in the mid-nineties so my memory isn't great - other than I do remember it being particularly chauvinistic and teenage version of me found it hilarious.

Then last year, after several attempts (again judge away) I got past the first chapter of Starship Troopers and I'm glad I did - although I still don't think it's your typical novel and more of a political manifesto. But [can I swear here?] me it's a riot.

So I guess my next one is either 'Stranger In A Strange Land' or 'The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress?'
 
Although 'Stranger' was published in 1961 it might be better to seek a copy of the 1991 release of the 'complete' text. Something like an extra 140 paperback pages present that were excised from the 1961 edition for being a bit OTT for the time.

Possibly the best place to read it would be in one of the 'nests' that the '61 issue inspired and which still exist. Grok the fullness and share water.

'Mistress' is an excellent tale. Everyone should read it - Wye Knott?

The spell-checker didn't even stutter over 'Grok'. Nice to see.

.
 
steelyglint said:
Although 'Stranger' was published in 1961 it might be better to seek a copy of the 1991 release of the 'complete' text. Something like an extra 140 paperback pages present that were excised from the 1961 edition for being a bit OTT for the time.

Possibly the best place to read it would be in one of the 'nests' that the '61 issue inspired and which still exist. Grok the fullness and share water.

'Mistress' is an excellent tale. Everyone should read it - Wye Knott?

The spell-checker didn't even stutter over 'Grok'. Nice to see.

.
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Just finished this years read of "Mistress" last night , my favourite Heinlein and up there for the title of favourite sci fi novel full stop........

Going to have to read the one where they rescue "Mike" now , just gotta remember which book ..? "Cat" IIRC


Have not read him as much these last few years maybe 2/3 year but might just go back to the beginning and read them all in chronological order.. :)

But on a happy note discovered this morning that "Puppet Masters" has a uncut version , I have the expanded 1990 one and was unaware that Baen had brought a uncut one out in 2010....... and they do it in Mobi which Amazon UK dont do .............
 
Brian Turner said:
I'll start a list of books to choose from. :)

Starship Troopers
Stranger in a Strange Land
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Glory Road

...

Am I getting close? :)
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Starship Troopers, an absolute classic of science fiction, forget the bugs and the 'skinnies' its all about the moral philosophy classes and how Heinlein tears about the ludicrous nature of war and the people who fight in them
 
Adam Stubbings said:
Starship Troopers, an absolute classic of science fiction, forget the bugs and the 'skinnies' its all about the moral philosophy classes and how Heinlein tears about the ludicrous nature of war and the people who fight in them
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If the human race was actually in a genocidal war against aliens would human philosophy apply?

psik
 
Mfactor said:
Just finished this years read of "Mistress" last night , my favourite Heinlein and up there for the title of favourite sci fi novel full stop........

Going to have to read the one where they rescue "Mike" now , just gotta remember which book ..? "Cat" IIRC


Have not read him as much these last few years maybe 2/3 year but might just go back to the beginning and read them all in chronological order.. :)

But on a happy note discovered this morning that "Puppet Masters" has a uncut version , I have the expanded 1990 one and was unaware that Baen had brought a uncut one out in 2010....... and they do it in Mobi which Amazon UK dont do .............
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Isn't the 'rescue' of Mike in 'The Number of the Beast'?

.
 
steelyglint said:
Only on our side.
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What kind of crappy philosophy could not transcend species? We are not all European. Not everyone thinks much of European philosophy.

It is so curious that Starship Troopers is mentioned so much but Heinlein's interest inthe ideas of Alfred Korzybski is not. Wouldn't his ideas have to transcend species?

psik
 
Simply that any alien race that disliked us so much they engaged in a war of extinction with us would hardly be fans of human philosophy. I'm sure they'd have their own.

.
 
Bringing Korzybski into this, I'm sure you then understand that the map is not the territory. Human philosophies are but maps of the territory and not the real thing, while the reality might be something that we'll never know because we've confused the map for reality.

psikeyhackr said:
What kind of crappy philosophy could not transcend species? We are not all European. Not everyone thinks much of European philosophy.

It is so curious that Starship Troopers is mentioned so much but Heinlein's interest inthe ideas of Alfred Korzybski is not. Wouldn't his ideas have to transcend species?

psik
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With that in mind we realize that each separate human philosophy might be a map of the same reality and that by some extension it might be the same reality by which the aliens derive their map. So they all have the same reality, but until they transcend the map which has now become their reality they can't recognize the similarities. But a writer doesn't have to transcend anything if he can steal the other's map long enough to write the story.
 
Adam Stubbings said:
Starship Troopers, an absolute classic of science fiction, forget the bugs and the 'skinnies' its all about the moral philosophy classes and how Heinlein tears about the ludicrous nature of war and the people who fight in them
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Some have argued that it is a satire. It's possible:)

Of course Harry Harrison Bill the Galactic Hero is a parody of Starship Troopers.;)
 
tinkerdan said:
reality might be something that we'll never know because we've confused the map for reality.
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Doesn't that imply science is a lost cause. Isn't science about perfecting the map not believing in it.

psik
 
Having just discovered this elderly thread, much of what I might have to say has likely been raised by other ten years ago.
But I'm not one to let that stop me. So: my favorite Heinlein:
Double Star.
The Door Into Summer.
Revolt in 2100.
The Puppet Masters.
Starman Jones.

The first of those I list because it was the one I first discovered, quite by accident, that led me to the realm of being a science fiction fan. I see that many in this thread see it as "lesser" Heinlein, but it's too deep into my psyche for me to make an objective judgment on its worth -- it's just that it shaped my view of all sf read thereafter...
And the last of my list is the only juvie on it -- one I found in a library after being turned on to Heinlein and going out on a search for anything else he had written; so it, too, is deep into my psyche.

The entire list I gave above, it may not noted, seems to fall into a particular period of Heinlein's career; and it's likely that my fondness for that results from the coincidence that that same period was when I was discovering sf and searching frantically for any more that I could get my hands on.

Nonetheless, I have read all other RAH that I have found (and I think I got it all). But now, thanks to the posters above in this thread, I see that it would be a good idea if I dug those books about and re-read them -- so thank you all for all your comments.
 
Science is the work of trying to make the map reflect reality and it's an on-going process.

psikeyhackr said:
Doesn't that imply science is a lost cause. Isn't science about perfecting the map not believing in it.

psik
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It may seem futile and frustrating at times' but never a lost cause. It's just that sometimes we overstep by trying to imply some exact nature to the science that we have. It is as exact as we can make it as we learn. When we make it exact to reality will we stop learning or will we merely find out that there are more levels to this reality thing that we have to fight through?

The more we know the more we understand that there is more that we need to know I believe that if we reach the level where we believe we know it all then that would be the time to call it (us not science) a lost cause.
 
tinkerdan said:
Science is the work of trying to make the map reflect reality and it's an on-going process.


It may seem futile and frustrating at times' but never a lost cause. It's just that sometimes we overstep by trying to imply some exact nature to the science that we have. It is as exact as we can make it as we learn. When we make it exact to reality will we stop learning or will we merely find out that there are more levels to this reality thing that we have to fight through?

The more we know the more we understand that there is more that we need to know I believe that if we reach the level where we believe we know it all then that would be the time to call it (us not science) a lost cause.
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Looking back through recent comments in this thread, I'd have to say that it looks as if some of us are conflating "science" and "philosophy." I don't think that they are the same thing, and maybe we need a thread to discuss that difference...
As long as we're here, however, let me suggest that -- since this particular discussion arose out of comments about Heinlein's own philosoph(y/ies), I suspect he would reject the notion that either science or philosophy are useless. I think he would say something like "science is the underlying reality, but it's of minimal use until a mind comes to know it with the intention of using it for some purpose -- and that's where the tool of philosophy comes to our hands."
For myself, I'd say that both are valid fields of study. But they are not identical fields of study.
 
I read this and it sounds like the pot calling the kettle dark.
2DaveWixon said:
Looking back through recent comments in this thread, I'd have to say that it looks as if some of us are conflating "science" and "philosophy." I don't think that they are the same thing, and maybe we need a thread to discuss that difference...
As long as we're here, however, let me suggest that -- since this particular discussion arose out of comments about Heinlein's own philosoph(y/ies), I suspect he would reject the notion that either science or philosophy are useless. I think he would say something like "science is the underlying reality, but it's of minimal use until a mind comes to know it with the intention of using it for some purpose -- and that's where the tool of philosophy comes to our hands."
For myself, I'd say that both are valid fields of study. But they are not identical fields of study.
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Okay so I'll admit to falling to the Korzybski bait. But the earliest cited use of Korzybski is in his work Gulf and it typifies an archetype he uses through his work because it makes for an interesting character. Still it has to be recognized that this same character in Gulf had some influence from Samuel Renshaw which is also maintained in characters throughout Heinlein's work. His archetype also contains dogma; which seems ironically in opposition to the Korzybski influence, but I think it's deliberate. I also think it's a mistake to assume that Heinlein is espousing his own beliefs more than he is working with an interesting what if and injecting his own little twists into the character.

Perhaps his intention was to show that you can attempt to created the person who transcends the usual foibles of the human condition, but you can't distill out all of the dogma that keeps dragging him back to his nature.

As far as Starship Troopers; I've not before heard or thought of the Korzybski archetype as being core to that novel.
 
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