A meta question on process

[JohnM]

I was talking about the final product; hopefully (for me) a coherent, well-written and engaging novel. Any way an individual writer chooses or finds to achieve this is the right way for them, whether through formal education and/or established techniques, or by 'winging it' by the seat of their pants. The final product is all that matters, and your 'do whatever' means a writer does whatever it takes to reach that target, whether through formal or informal means and methods.

I have had two novels traditionally published and started both of them with a rough idea in my head; a beginning, a few set-piece scenes and an ending to write towards. When I typed the first words I had no idea who the characters were, what POV I would use or how I was going to get from the beginning to the first set-piece (a scene in my first novel that began 80 pages in). But it worked out fine and I won an award for that novel before I got the book deal. I was also nominated for a prestigious screenwriting prize for an animated screenplay I wrote, which I started with a one sentence idea (when a sock goes missing, his distraught partner sets out to find him). That's all I had when I sat down to write. (I nearly sold that script to Fox, but that's another story!)

I'm not telling you this to brag - though I am extremely pleased with myself, as failed high school English student with no formal writing education, to have taught myself from scratch to write creatively and achieve modest success - but just to demonstrate there is no rigid path to reach your goals. Just, thankfully, a huge number of creative possibilities.

I took Creative Writing at University. However, I left after a few years with no degree.

What I'm seeing here is a very strange anti-formal learning message. As if it no longer matters. It does. Read the book, On Writing by Stephen King. It recounts his formal education and getting some writing returned with the "unnecessary words" crossed out.

I've dealt with Hollywood but I cannot say much. Dealing with Fox was a little strange.

Anyway, and I doubt I'm wrong, here is the series of messages here:

1) Spend no money. Take no classes, just produce the book however.

2) Spend no money, just get a friend with little skill to produce a cover for you or make one up yourself as opposed to hiring a professional, which costs money.

3) Spend no money and publish electronically.

I've read so much as a working editor over the years and have had long discussions with professional published authors in person. I saw every stage of the creative process. I did my best to give advice to beginning writers over the phone and in person. And I've noticed something: all of the same problems year in and year out. The same mistakes.

Some people call my company with ideas. We're not looking for ideas, which are a dime a dozen. We want solid presentation, solid exposition. Present your idea in an exciting way. But those people can't do that. Oh well.

Off topic, but there is a connection. For a number of years I went to the student art exhibit at the local 'prestigious' art school. The examples from first year painting showed all of the same errors every year. For second year, there were a few pieces that were very good. By third year, a few gems began to appear. By fourth year, a few more. My point is: Regardless of whatever creative endeavor you're involved in, you don't just pick up and turn pro immediately. I have artist friends and acquaintances as well. And we've talked and I've acted as assistant art instructor, art director, from time to time on individual assignments.

Yes, you can learn things on your own but you don't get there somehow. When I'm asked to contribute writing to a book based on my expert knowledge of certain subjects, you'd think it was easy. It's not. But I know my way out of writer's block. And it's important to accept valid constructive criticism.

 

[Steve Harrison]

I haven't seen anyone here being anti-formal learning. I suspect most writers here, like me, have an open mind and know there are also informal ways of learning the craft. I actually would have liked to have had some formal writing tuition, but I only developed a sudden and inexplicable urge to write in my late 20s, when life and a non-writing career were more important. This lack of education may have slowed my progress, but I'm more than happy how things turned out.

If you have dealt with Hollywood, I'm surprised you find my dealings with Fox strange. After years of trying (unsuccessfully) to get an agent or manager and sell my screenplays there, and several just-like-you-see-in-the-movies meetings with producers, I have concluded that everything about Hollywood is so strange, it's normal. The Fox excitement was a simple (but rare) case of me getting the nominated script into the hands of a well known animated movie director who took it the studio. It was the most exciting week of my screenwriting non-career, until an exec said no.

It's still a great script, though

 

[Montero]

One stage in the learning to write process can be paying for a sample to be read by a professional editor - but one with a solid history in your genre. John Jarrold for example (former commissioning editor for a sff imprint, Earthlight) because that is where you get the kind of feedback that says "This scene is fun but going nowhere on the main story and is slowing things down. Cut it." If you've polished your sample to the best you can, you then learn what you've missed.

I would also note that there have been very successful novelists from before there were creative writing courses. Not anti-formal training here, but just saying that some people can learn to write well through other routes. I think what training may add is speed - as in you learn to write well sooner.
When I was at school we learned English Language and English Lit (don't know what schools do these days) and that included essay writing on the title set by the teacher - I remember one on making a phone call, one on goodbyes and one on happiness - I waxed lyrical about sandwich fillings as a source of happiness . English Lit included both analysis of the texts and the meaning in it, and writing essays about the books from different angles - how dramatic is a certain scene, what do you learn about the character, what did the secondary characters add to the scene and the like. It was a while ago now but I think was a good foundation.
One thing I and my writing buddy have found is that reading aloud what you've written can be very instructive - it shows up missing words, twisted sentences and if you are starting to fall asleep while reading your own book you're either very tired or your story is too slow.

 

[Abernovo]

Anyway, and I doubt I'm wrong, here is the series of messages here:

1) Spend no money. Take no classes, just produce the book however.

2) Spend no money, just get a friend with little skill to produce a cover for you or make one up yourself as opposed to hiring a professional, which costs money.

3) Spend no money and publish electronically.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

I've seen nobody here advocate against formal learning. Spend no money? If you look at various threads within the writing forums here, you will see repeated emphasis on the wisdom--even the need--for good editors, and the absolute requirement that artists are paid for their work, in terms of cover art. Because, artists not supporting other artists, of whatever denomination, is both short-sighted, and wrong.

You will also see people repeating the need to use beta readers, and exchange texts, both to help sand off rough edges before submitting to publishers, and to learn from each other. The last is important, as not all learning is by formal means.

Classes can help. There are, again, several threads and comments in the forums about writing retreats (amongst other forms), where you listen to guest lecturers, produce some of your own writing, and get it critiqued by fellow students and the author-lecturers. However, I'll repeat something a uni lecturer once told me, and that is the dissemination of knowledge is not, and must not be, confined to a classroom. If I learn how to do something, and someone who's struggling asks for help with the same thing, I'm going to share my knowledge.

Sharing knowledge, and helping others, is not formal education. It's called creating community.

As to publishing electronically, yes, there are plenty of people here who have been, and perhaps are only interested in being, self-published - and electronically, at that. Many of them still believe in producing as good a product as they possibly can, and believe in investing in it, even if they do not have much money to spare. But, there are also quite a lot of authors on this site who are published traditionally. In addition to them, there are editors, and a couple of reasonably well-known agents have been known to hover around.

Many of them would say there is no requirement for a formal education in writing, but none would sneer at it. Nobody would say "spend no money" in improving yourself. Everybody would say, though, that if you go down the traditional route, money should flow from the publisher to the writer. Just needed to add that as the standard industry caveat, for anyone else reading.

And it's important to accept valid constructive criticism.

That is something I think pretty much everyone here agrees on. It's something I get in my day job all the time: analysis of, and feedback on, what went well and what went...er...not so well, both individually and as a team. It makes you stronger in whatever you do. Which is why it's so important to have an open mind about other points of view.

 

[Biskit]

If I learn how to do something, and someone who's struggling asks for help with the same thing, I'm going to share my knowledge.

And trying to teach someone else what you have learned is a powerful method of improving your own understanding.

Many years ago, I worked with someone who believed that BSc and MSc were valid qualifications, but a PhD was not because it was not a "taught course" and therefore you didn't have someone teaching it who "knew the right answer". He rather missed the point that, like many things in life, you start by learning underlying principals from someone else, and eventually go beyond what you are taught to learn and develop for yourself.

 

[HareBrain]

I think it is useful for even beginners to take an interest in the theory of structure etc. The danger is in then treating the eight-point arc (or whichever system) as a template that must be followed at all costs. That could be very limiting (for some; for others it could give reassurance that they are working with an accepted skeleton). The fact that there are so many systems, each of which seemed to work for someone, is a good indicator that "rules" can only ever be guidance.

I've always liked this quote:

"There are three rules for writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are." -- W Somerset Maugham

 

[JohnM]

I haven't seen anyone here being anti-formal learning. I suspect most writers here, like me, have an open mind and know there are also informal ways of learning the craft. I actually would have liked to have had some formal writing tuition, but I only developed a sudden and inexplicable urge to write in my late 20s, when life and a non-writing career were more important. This lack of education may have slowed my progress, but I'm more than happy how things turned out.

If you have dealt with Hollywood, I'm surprised you find my dealings with Fox strange. After years of trying (unsuccessfully) to get an agent or manager and sell my screenplays there, and several just-like-you-see-in-the-movies meetings with producers, I have concluded that everything about Hollywood is so strange, it's normal. The Fox excitement was a simple (but rare) case of me getting the nominated script into the hands of a well known animated movie director who took it the studio. It was the most exciting week of my screenwriting non-career, until an exec said no.

It's still a great script, though

Did you read what I wrote? I know nothing about your dealings with Fox. I was referring to my own.

 

[JohnM]

I think it is useful for even beginners to take an interest in the theory of structure etc. The danger is in then treating the eight-point arc (or whichever system) as a template that must be followed at all costs. That could be very limiting (for some; for others it could give reassurance that they are working with an accepted skeleton). The fact that there are so many systems, each of which seemed to work for someone, is a good indicator that "rules" can only ever be guidance.

I've always liked this quote:

"There are three rules for writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are." -- W Somerset Maugham

Then why discuss anything here? Just write: "I did it my way." Sinatra

 

[JohnM]

Sorry, but you are wrong.

I've seen nobody here advocate against formal learning. Spend no money? If you look at various threads within the writing forums here, you will see repeated emphasis on the wisdom--even the need--for good editors, and the absolute requirement that artists are paid for their work, in terms of cover art. Because, artists not supporting other artists, of whatever denomination, is both short-sighted, and wrong.

You will also see people repeating the need to use beta readers, and exchange texts, both to help sand off rough edges before submitting to publishers, and to learn from each other. The last is important, as not all learning is by formal means.

Classes can help. There are, again, several threads and comments in the forums about writing retreats (amongst other forms), where you listen to guest lecturers, produce some of your own writing, and get it critiqued by fellow students and the author-lecturers. However, I'll repeat something a uni lecturer once told me, and that is the dissemination of knowledge is not, and must not be, confined to a classroom. If I learn how to do something, and someone who's struggling asks for help with the same thing, I'm going to share my knowledge.

Sharing knowledge, and helping others, is not formal education. It's called creating community.

As to publishing electronically, yes, there are plenty of people here who have been, and perhaps are only interested in being, self-published - and electronically, at that. Many of them still believe in producing as good a product as they possibly can, and believe in investing in it, even if they do not have much money to spare. But, there are also quite a lot of authors on this site who are published traditionally. In addition to them, there are editors, and a couple of reasonably well-known agents have been known to hover around.

Many of them would say there is no requirement for a formal education in writing, but none would sneer at it. Nobody would say "spend no money" in improving yourself. Everybody would say, though, that if you go down the traditional route, money should flow from the publisher to the writer. Just needed to add that as the standard industry caveat, for anyone else reading.


That is something I think pretty much everyone here agrees on. It's something I get in my day job all the time: analysis of, and feedback on, what went well and what went...er...not so well, both individually and as a team. It makes you stronger in whatever you do. Which is why it's so important to have an open mind about other points of view.

I'll only deal with this "open mind" concept. That's wrong. There are rules in commercial publishing. If they are not known, books do not come out on schedule. Authors have no clue as to what to do. I have dealt with writers where when I point out their mistakes, their problems, I can see a deer in headlights look - over the phone.

I've been in many creative meetings, formal and informal. It does not help if three people are in the room and one has significantly less knowledge than the others or throws out some suggestion based on little or no knowledge. He might as well be excluded.

Example: Book cover design. There are people out there who do nothing else. Personal example: I was called in to help solve a problem with a book title 'sticking' to the background. The head art director and head graphic designer were there and they wanted my advice. I took a glance at the problem and told the graphic designer to put a soft, thin white line around all letters. He did this very quickly and the problem was solved. A person with zero skill may have made the line a little too thick. It was only through training and experience that such things can happen. The cover was sent off on schedule.

Creating community is a great problem online when dealing with anonymous people. Community means actual people meeting face to face or at least talking on the phone. This play by post concept makes nuance and personal introductions very difficult.

 

[Montero]

I thought you said you were an editor, not a cover designer, or did I misunderstand that?

 

[Abernovo]

I'll only deal with this "open mind" concept. That's wrong. There are rules in commercial publishing. If they are not known, books do not come out on schedule.

I'm well aware there are rules in commercial publishing, thank you, the same as there are rules in any business. That's obvious, and not even relevant to the point being made, as I think you well know.

Authors have no clue as to what to do.

That's a pretty sweeping, and ungenerous, comment.

It does not help if three people are in the room and one has significantly less knowledge than the others or throws out some suggestion based on little or no knowledge. He might as well be excluded.

Whilst someone lacking in experience may provide unhelpful suggestions, it's also the case that new and unjaded eyes can provide a solution which is not apparent to a more experienced person who has become blinkered by their past, and stopped learning. Whatever, your comment feels arrogant, and demeaning to those younger or junior to you, which is not a good look.

The head art director and head graphic designer were there and they wanted my advice. I took a glance at the problem and told the graphic designer to put a soft, thin white line around all letters. He did this very quickly and the problem was solved. A person with zero skill may have made the line a little too thick. It was only through training and experience that such things can happen.

So, you're an editor, and an expert in graphic design, and you know better than everyone else?

Creating community is a great problem online when dealing with anonymous people. Community means actual people meeting face to face or at least talking on the phone. This play by post concept makes nuance and personal introductions very difficult.

Where to begin with this? Welcome to the 21st Century. Communities can exist online. Yes, nuance and introductions may sometimes be difficult, which is where a little humility and empathy go a long way. As it happens, I'm a member of several communities, which cross from online to "irl" situations.

In regards to this community within the forums, we're not all anonymous to each other. Many have met up, at conventions and (geography permitting) for social events. As an aside, that last is something I miss -- it's been too long since I was able get gussied up, and go out. But I digress. Several of us keep in contact both here, and via email, text, Skype, social media, and phone, even without physical meet-ups. Indeed, I've made some good friends on these boards. The fact that we don't all use our names in the public areas of the boards is a minor irrelevance.

I wish you well in your endeavours, and I hope you make a success of them, but as you appear to have no interest in listening to anybody's opinions but your own, I'll bow out.

 

[Luiglin]

“There is no rule on how to write. Sometimes it comes easily and perfectly; sometimes it's like drilling rock and then blasting it out with charges.” ― Ernest Hemingway

@Valnus, if you are still around, Ernie sums it up better than I ever can. But if he doesn't impress...

"The first draft is just you telling yourself the story." - Terry Pratchett

Take Sir Terry's advice, tell yourself a tale that will make you smile.

 

[Montero]

@Abernovo I want an emoticon for loud cheers.
So that is two emoticons we all need - groan for Ursa and other punartists and a loud cheer for occasions like this.

 

[Pyan]

Can we keep the discussion polite and to the point, please?

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Whatever happened to :-

Once upon a time...

The Prince killed the evil Uncle, Wolf, Knight, King, Witch....

They all lived happily ever after.

THE END is nigh.

Simple, to the point, has worked for ages and everyone has a good laugh, cry, cheer or whatever depending on the desired outcome.

 

[Biskit]

Whatever happened to :-

Once upon a time...

The Prince killed the evil Uncle, Wolf, Knight, King, Witch....

They all lived happily ever after.

THE END is nigh.

Simple, to the point, has worked for ages and everyone has a good laugh, cry, cheer or whatever depending on the desired outcome.

I like it. Simple, easy to follow and fun.

So, just to be clear that I got all the nuances here:
Is the serial-killer Prince the hero of the story?
Are the victims cohabiting post-mortem?
Is this an undead, resurrected or purely metaphorically relationship?

PS
When are you publishing.

 

[Montero]

On writing advice - Patricia C Wrede (author of Sorcery and Cecilia amongst other books) has a long term writing blog which I've seen recommended.
Here she is talking about plot vs structure and how they are not the same thing.

https://pcwrede.com/pcw-wp/plot-vs-structure/

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

I like it. Simple, easy to follow and fun.

So, just to be clear that I got all the nuances here:
Is the serial-killer Prince the hero of the story?
Are the victims cohabiting post-mortem?
Is this an undead, resurrected or purely metaphorically relationship?

PS
When are you publishing.

No, the Prince is in fact his own sister that was thought to be killed by wolves in the Prologue. She turns out to be the Weir Wolf who'd been looking to kill her father since she was turned, because he left her to die (he wanted a son - Prince) in the forest. The hero is the Queens dowager mother who retired to a quaint cottage where she "entertains" woodsmen with large axes. The neighbouring dwarfs have been having a boundary dispute with her since she and her now "living dead" husband the Old King annexed the mine they use to traffic young virgins to the local slave trader, the Prince's uncle. The new Kings wife is evil old hag (older than his grandmother in fact). She has an unsavory relationship with a "mirror" spirit who's ultimate ambition is to open a hairdressing salon in the town square. The girl/daughter/weir wolf/son forms a friendship with three bears and together they kill the dwarfs because they stole poisoned apples from their orchard and so begins the Woodland Poridge Oat company who become one of the richest food store chains in fairyland.

But....

True to the formula, the Daughter marries herself the price and the woodsmen and trafficed virgins set up together in an ice bound valley where the sing the old classic musical songs., but most of all, they all live happily together forever after.

 

[Pyan]

I sincerely hope that you’re going to write this up and get it published - I’d certainly buy it.

 

[JohnM]

I thought you said you were an editor, not a cover designer, or did I misunderstand that?

I am involved in all aspects of book production. I even did keylining by hand before we switched to electronic files.