psikeyhackr
Physics is Phutile, Fiziks is Fundamental
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 2,139
So what material help did the UK and US provide to the USSR?
Should we be grateful that ultimately Hitler and Stalin were both stupid?I think a more pertinent question would be: could the allies have won if Russia had never been invaded?
The deaths in WW2 were around 55 million. Around 27 million of those were Russian. It’s simply staggering that even losing that number of people, the Soviet Union still took the fight right into the streets of Berlin.
If the Axis don’t attack the Soviet Union, and go for the Mediterranean strategy instead, they take Malta, Crete, Cyprus, North Africa and the Near East, aiming for the Persian oil fields. Then the Soviets attack in 42, after the mechanised corps have been reorganised and re-equipped - and Berlin is a metaphorical stones throw from Soviet-occupied Poland.
The Anglo Iraqi war of May 41 wasn't large but it decisively ended any real chance of Germany getting Iraqi oil.
And then followed up a couple of months later by the Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran, just to make sure the oil came to the Allies and give another American supply route into Soviet Russia.
I've always wondered how Nazi Germany would have faired if they hadn't allied themselves militarily with Fascist Italy. The rot seems to set in once they are committed to supporting Italian moves in the Balkans/Greece and North Africa.
Hurray for politics and ideology before strategy!
Now there is a cheery thought... But he wanted his New Roman Empire so badly...If Mussolini had stayed away from Hitler, stayed Neutral like Franco and, not engaged in any overseas empire building , he might well have lived to a ripe old age in office.
I'm sure I read that in the 30s, there was a German Ambassador's report back to his bosses in Berlin, along the line of Never under any circumstances get involved with Mussolini. I think the word delusional was involved...Mussolini's foreign policy blunders no doubt caused Hitler to delay Operation Barbarossa by forced him divert troops to help bail him out.
Given what delusional egomaniac Mussolini was , he was destined for bad end. In the early days, before he got into power , Hitler admired Mussolini and considered him to be role model . But over time , that changed.Now there is a cheery thought... But he wanted his New Roman Empire so badly...
I'm sure I read that in the 30s, there was a German Ambassador's report back to his bosses in Berlin, along the line of Never under any circumstances get involved with Mussolini. I think the word delusional was involved...
I think it was plain that Roosevelt wanted to declare war on Germany. Over the course of the early years the US had moved closer and closer to the allies, and I believe eventually they would have. Notice that militarily the war in Europe was almost immediately the primary concern of the US, and the war on Japan was pushed to the back burner. But Hitler's move removed any doubt which might have lingered.Some may say that he declared war because the US were about to declare war on Germany. But were they? WWII had been raging for 2 years and they hadn't declared war. And with Pearl Harbour being bombed, American eyes were turning East, not West, to deal with the most dangerous, most immediate threat - Japan. Hitler declaring war on the US must have been a huge relief to Churchill, and probably to Roosevelt as well.
Trucks were the biggest contribution as far as I know. I watched a great lecture by Victor Davis Hanson on Youtube a while back where he described how the Germans complained that the Soviet Army ran on Ford. Also, he states that horses were still very much in use and in great numbers on both sides, so the truck was indeed a differentiator across the vast distance of eastern Europe.So what material help did the UK and US provide to the USSR?
There seems to be evidence that the USSR was massing near Germany's borders for an invasion despite their treaty with the Nazis, and if this was indeed true, it is said by some historians that Hitler attacked Russia to be on the offensive and not on their heels. This set of events, the proponents historians claim, was buried to smooth over any negative perceptions of the USSR from the western media. The west didn't desire to continue the war, though some generals like Patton saw the threat that the USSR posed and wanted to finish the job (and some claim that was the real reason why Patton was sidelined). The rest of course ... is history.The truth is that we don't know how WW II would have played out without US and British aid to the Russians. I believe that you can make a case for almost any scenario from the war taking only a little longer, to Germany developing the atom bomb and winning the war. --- I don't see either as very possible, but possible none-the-less.
As mentioned up thread, the really key and really stupid move Hitler made was invading Russia in the first place. He'd have been much better served to forget about the invasion of Russia, who might well have stayed out of the fighting, and concentrate on the Western Allies. If he defeated them (I'd make his chances of success at about 35%) he could then try to kill off the Soviet leadership by bombs and assassination. Temporary world domination was not completely out of the question for Hitler.
There seems to be evidence that the USSR was massing near Germany's borders for an invasion despite their treaty with the Nazis, and if this was indeed true, it is said by some historians that Hitler attacked Russia to be on the offensive and not on their heels. This set of events, the proponents historians claim, was buried to smooth over any negative perceptions of the USSR from the western media. The west didn't desire to continue the war, though some generals like Patton saw the threat that the USSR posed and wanted to finish the job (and some claim that was the real reason why Patton was sidelined). The rest of course ... is history.
I think it was plain that Roosevelt wanted to declare war on Germany. Over the course of the early years the US had moved closer and closer to the allies, and I believe eventually they would have. Notice that militarily the war in Europe was almost immediately the primary concern of the US, and the war on Japan was pushed to the back burner. But Hitler's move removed any doubt which might have lingered.
Another reason for the US (FDR) to support the UK (and his good friend Churchill) when war was declared would be the loss of England as a base of operation. It would have been a logistical nightmare to try and mount a invasion on either Africa or Europe if England fell. The U-Boats would have had a field day. And again if Hitler did not invade Russia, Operation Sea Lion would have been on. True the Battle of Britain may have convinced him otherwise.
Much of the US populace wanted to go after Japan with everything starting Dec. 8th 1941, yet England prevailed.