Meeting a writing coach and feeling a bit disheartened

Man... I'm sorry you had to deal with that kind of narcissism. I'm no established author by any means, but as someone who has dealt with bossy people trying to discourage my creativity/tell me how to live my life, I say screw it. Don't listen to her AT all. I'm sure she had some degree of good advice, but because she went about it in such a crappy way there's no use trying to fish the good out of anything she said. I feel like that would just waste time and energy you need to write. But that being said, I would definitely work on banging that first book/ draft out, editing it, and then maybe publishing it (professionally OR self). Or at the very least, I think step one should be to just finish it so you can begin your edit. No harm in that right? Just do you! You're writing because you want to, make it like Burger King "Have it your way!". If it's not fun something's probably wrong.
 
A good, hard, crit can be a good thing, if it's delivered in a professional manner. This woman is a wombat, avoid her and her like and seek out those who know what they are talking about. I've been where you are and believe me, for the moment you're better on your own. Write your story, then begin rewriting till you think you have something worth submitting here for appraisal.

The life of a new writer isn't easy, so prepare for the bad days as well as the good.
 
One thing about the things she said: she was saying them without even reading any of your manuscript. And they were just the type of things that so often depend on the execution ... which is what she couldn't comment on without reading what you have written so far (much less what you have left to write). Professional advice can be valuable, but it has to be of the right sort at the right time.

From what you have said, shamguy, she doesn't sound that much like a writing coach, who I assume ought to be encouraging you to write and hoping you get past any blocks in your progress. I'm not sure what she is trying to do, but it doesn't sound like that. But Jo is the one who would know more about that than I do.
 
Teresa Edgerton said:
One thing about the things she said: she was saying them without even reading any of your manuscript. And they were just the type of things that so often depend on the execution ... which is what she couldn't comment on without reading what you have written so far (much less what you have left to write). Professional advice can be valuable, but it has to be of the right sort at the right time.

From what you have said, shamguy, she doesn't sound that much like a writing coach, who I assume ought to be encouraging you to write and hoping you get past any blocks in your progress. I'm not sure what she is trying to do, but it doesn't sound like that. But Jo is the one who would know more about that than I do.
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Yeah, a coach is different from an editor - its more about giving you the space to find your own way through to the writer you want to be. (I say that with a big caveat - often writing mentors do seem more focussed on the critique and editing cycle rather than the coaching cycle) so they shouldn’t come at it with a ‘you‘re wrong’ attitude. Which isn’t to say they shouldn’t ask challenging questions of you and your practice - they should - but coaching should give you the space to decide how you want to develop from your own responses to those questions.
from that, you can see why I don’t think this person was following a coaching model - but one thing I would say is that a writing coach technically might not need to see any of your writing since they’re giving the space to you to explore and build. But it’s very hard not to see both the writing and writer in the round.
 
shamguy4 said:
Recently, on a Facebook group a person reached out to me and asked if I would be interested in having a writing coach. The first session would be free. I figured it couldn’t hurt. Why not?
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This for me this is the key thing. Somebody came to you and offered you the services of a writing coach. You didn't seek this person out. That to me is odd. This person has only two books under her belt, maybe written to a very rigid formula, maybe successful, maybe not, and they're hawking for business. If you're not interested in paying for their services, the free session is a colossal waste of time for them.

They didn't read your writing. Maybe I'm wrong in this. I'm not a writing coach, but surely that is the first thing a writing coach would examine is your writing. It's the bedrock on which everything else depends.

I'd echo what other people said--finish your novel as best you can. Even the ending is a hames, it's meant to be. It's a first draft. Sounds to me like you want the book to come fully formed and already able to walk. You probably would come up with fixes to your plot issues in the second and subsequent drafts. You seem to have a clear vision of what sort of book you want to produce. If not, maybe get a developmental editor if you can afford it, when you've done all you can yourself.

shamguy4 said:
She asked me if I would be traditionally publishing or self publishing and I said I have not gotten there yet. However I graduated in graphic design and know how to use inDesign seriously so I might give self publishing a try. I also know where I can hire some illustrators for the cover.
At this she almost died of laughter as she bounced up and down on her chair that squeaked away in agreement. The very idea of me trying to self publish! Now there's a good laugh!

"Sweety! If you want to be part of the professional world of writing you better hire someone to do the publishing for you. You can self publish, but please hire a professional. I'm just trying to help you here." She said, her face full of sadness and sympathy. "You don't want your book and cover to look like what I see in those... those silly forums and facebook groups!"
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I actually had to check the date of your post because I suddenly thought this thread might be resurrected from 2013!

This on face-value is actually TERRIBLE advice, because 'hiring someone to do the publishing for you' is vanity publishing at worst or at best more a far more expensive route than necessary. As a self-publisher, you may be better off hiring people for specific tasks like editing, cover design, and typesetting. There's a difference between being a brilliant illustrator and knowing how to design the illustration around the titles for example. But that's all further down the road if you choose that route.
 
I don't even think its this:

Ogma said:
This on face-value is actually TERRIBLE advice, because 'hiring someone to do the publishing for you' is vanity publishing at worst or at best more a far more expensive route than necessary. As a self-publisher, you may be better off hiring people for specific tasks like editing, cover design, and typesetting. There's a difference between being a brilliant illustrator and knowing how to design the illustration around the titles for example. But that's all further down the road if you choose that route.
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Having used a POD service: they tend to gush about how great everything you have is and how well it will do after they polish it for you. They make you feel good about it so that you will buy one of their publishing packages.

No this person was something else.

This reminds me of the ISO and AS certification people: They charge 15 to 20 grand to come into a company and insult all the help while they try to convince you that they are going to get you to that certification despite how woefully inadequate your present system is.

Yup; that's it, everything you are doing right now is all wrong but don't worry, you are paying me to tell you how to do it and once we plug you into my system and you get rid of all those things you thought you learned in the past you will have a better chance of succeeding.
 
Thanks for the kind words and helping restore my faith in what might be my crappy work in progress.

When the person reached out to me on Facebook, I got excited at the idea of opening up to someone about my story and seeing if they can help me figure out how to fix some of the plot holes. Or teach me a better writing process.
Clearly that didn’t happen.

@Ogma
When it comes to plot holes or just areas in my story where I’m unsure how to close the gap, do you suggest just pretending I know what happens and just write whatever comes to my head until I land on something better?
I normally try going back-and-forth between plotting and writing, plotting and writing. Sometimes though I cannot figure out what comes next and I do more plotting than writing. Sometimes this leads to a month of no writing and falling out of it is terrible. When I start writing again it’s like trying to climb a large mountain.

This woman was suppose to magically tell me the words I needed to hear that would solve all my problems!! For $350! Sigh....
 
I think that a lot of this devolves down to planning.
Do you do outlines?

shamguy4 said:
When it comes to plot holes or just areas in my story where I’m unsure how to close the gap, do you suggest just pretending I know what happens and just write whatever comes to my head until I land on something better?
I normally try going back-and-forth between plotting and writing, plotting and writing. Sometimes though I cannot figure out what comes next and I do more plotting than writing. Sometimes this leads to a month of no writing and falling out of it is terrible. When I start writing again it’s like trying to climb a large mountain.
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Think, before answering. I do a lot of outlining in my head and when things are really tough I start throwing it onto paper.
I think that a true pants-er doesn't exist unless they are like that infinite monkeys at a typewriter who will eventually write the works of Shakespeare and any number of other works. The outline is in the head.

When you start seeing plot holes, that's the time to refer back to the plan.

I don't think plot holes fix themselves, so they need to be dealt with. However you need to forge onward and I think that often when you do that and reach the cusp where that plot hole is going to turn things sour you might have a better idea of what it takes to fix it or even what needs to happen in view of that hole.

It might depend on what the plot hole is. It could be that the character uses technology that doesn't exist or is beyond physics as we know it and you need to know how to deal with that. Or it may be that one action cancels out the possibility of another important action down the line.

Plot holes happen even to those who plan. Usually accompanied by the thought, 'what was I thinking'.

I think; depending on the severity, there are some that can be passed up for now and others that need to be fixed right now or the plot is going to be irreparably broken. There will even be those that you are not aware of--that slip right by until someone else reads it.

And that might be something more for a book doctor or content editor than a coach.
Difference between book doctor and content editor.
Content editor finds problems and highlights them and you fix them.
Book doctor finds problems and fixes them as they go.
So most writers might prefer the content editor.
 
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I tried to read through all the previous responses to get an idea of what was already said, so I do apologize if anything I say is repetitive. Personally, I consider writing a form of art. Art is about self-expression. Anyone who tells you that you can't express yourself the way that feels right or is true to your own vision doesn't truly appreciate art.

That being said, the conventional publishing world is very limited to "what will sell." Now, maybe this woman you talked to is more knowledgeable about "what will sell" because she has books that were published. However, not all writers and artists have a vision that aligns with "what will sell." To me, it sounds very much like this writing coach only cared about a project that would "make it" in a traditional publishing arena. As a lot of writers and avid readers go the traditional publishing field is very competitive, kind of narrow, and hard to get a foot in the door with something new, cutting edge, or remotely different.

As a writer, you should never compromise what you want though, just to appease the masses in the traditional publishing world. While it is still premature for you to be worrying about what route you will take in publishing, as others have pointed out, you've got to finish your first draft and go through the motions before considering publishing options, don't feel like you have to tailor your book to meet the conventional publishing "standards." Just for clarification though, it is entirely possible to be successful as a self-published author. You might need to do more legwork with marketing your book, but overall you can make it work. If you self-publish and gather a following, a traditional publishing house might decide to pick up your book and get it a larger audience (I know of at least two self-published authors this has happened to).

My father, like me, is both a fiction and non-fiction writer. He and I have a very long chat recently about writing and publishing. One of the things that he said really stuck with me. He said writers who make a name for themselves write what they love and make a niche for it. Take Stephen King (as he was referenced earlier), he writes horror, and he is good at it! But, you don't see Stephen King adapting his horror genre to fit contemporary romance because it happens to be selling more popularly than horror (I don't actually know if that is true, it is just an example). He writes what he loves and what he knows, and he has a following. If you stay true to your vision, you can find a following. You don't need to change your vision to fit a preformed following.

So, overall, I think the writing coach you encountered had tunnel vision on the expectations of what she thought made a good book and what had the potential to sell on a conventional market. That sounds more like a literary agent looking for a project they can capitalize on rather than a writing coach who wants to inspire you and help you develop your book.

Despite your poor experience with this writing coach, don't give up on what you feel is true to your novel. Write the story the way you want it. If you think you need a writing coach, do some research on how to find a good one that will meet your expectations and needs as an aspiring novelist. You might even want to research different coaches to get reviews from other people they've worked with and better understand their history with writing and publishing. Good luck with finishing your novel! Like you, I cross genre lines all the time, but it always feels right for the project I'm working on!
 
Hugh said:
This is a complete con.

Standard stuff. Offer a freebie in which you set out to destroy the punter's self-belief so she/he will beg for help and fork out loads of cash.
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Well slap me round the head with a wet fish if I can't offer a cheaper service than that.

Of course I won't be offering the super duper shatter your self esteem services that this lady specialises in nor will there be any physical abuse or discount on the therapist sessions you'll become dependent on after everyone of her visits, but hey I give good value for money at very reasonable rates.

Oh by the way I also have access to Nigerian princes and a sure fire stock market tip that will make you thousands in minutes.

I also sell double glazing.

Obviously this is classic sales technique. As most salesmen know the more people/companies you contact with a product for sale and the more you feed the sales funnel. Most cold call sales deals only end up with less than 1% actual sales. The more you stuff in the funnel the more likely you are to get that one "customer" that takes the bait. And that one customer can make your sales figures for years to come.

Now someone, who may know absolutely nothing about writing (writing and publishing two books is ten minutes work on well known self publishing sites) let alone actual real world publishing has targeted you for a possible meal ticket. Accept the advice from others above. Her opinions of things have little relevance other than to wind you up. I wouldn't believe her if she claimed it was a bit windy in a hurricane myself.

Write the book. Sod it have multiple cross genres - Western, Horror and psychological thriller with

Edit it.

Find someone who's opinion you can have some belief in.

send me $50.
 
@shamguy4

Having had a similar cycle in the past, I've come to look at it like this. If you were painting a picture, you'd draw it out rough first. You'd then paint over the outline, layering up the detail. A painter would rarely at the bottom left corner of the canvas and paint their picture a dot at the time back and forth like a printer until, hey presto, the painting is done.

I always had an idea where a plot should go, but I've learned to outline. I've learned to accept that outline may not survive contact with the detail of the first draft and likewise the first draft may be changed by the second and so on. I just concentrate on getting to the end of each step. And above all else, I've learned to give myself permission to be terrible until it's finished. Even if you close every issue you see, there are probably as many problems you've missed. The whole thing fluid (and improving) until you publish. Maybe even after.
 
shamguy4 said:
When it comes to plot holes or just areas in my story where I’m unsure how to close the gap, do you suggest just pretending I know what happens and just write whatever comes to my head until I land on something better?
I normally try going back-and-forth between plotting and writing, plotting and writing. Sometimes though I cannot figure out what comes next and I do more plotting than writing. Sometimes this leads to a month of no writing and falling out of it is terrible. When I start writing again it’s like trying to climb a large mountain.

This woman was suppose to magically tell me the words I needed to hear that would solve all my problems!! For $350! Sigh....
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First off - whatever gets you over the hurdle. Whatever works, works. If it works, it isn't stupid. Etc.etc.

Second... there's nothing wrong with plot-write-plot-write and I think there's quite a few writers who function in this style. The only real problem from what you say is sometimes when you stop to check the map and the car breaks down. Have you considered any fixes for this? Maybe having a side project, a short story or two to do while considering the route ahead when you're stuck, so you stay writing? Maybe using plot outlines to help make decisions?

Thiswriterinme said:
That being said, the conventional publishing world is very limited to "what will sell." Now, maybe this woman you talked to is more knowledgeable about "what will sell" because she has books that were published. However, not all writers and artists have a vision that aligns with "what will sell." To me, it sounds very much like this writing coach only cared about a project that would "make it" in a traditional publishing arena. As a lot of writers and avid readers go the traditional publishing field is very competitive, kind of narrow, and hard to get a foot in the door with something new, cutting edge, or remotely different.
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I rather considered this to be the case too. However, to state the obvious/expound on what's pointed out here - their notion of what will sell is not always accurate. And in the case of someone who thinks you can't have magic in a Sci-Fi setting, v. dubious.
 
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