Does anyone know why 13 dwarves in the Hobbit?

The Big Peat

Darth Buddha
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This question came up on a different forum; it seems a weird number and doesn't help for giving them character. I was curious if anybody knew of an actual reason Tolkien did 13 instead of anything else. Or was it just random?
 
I think people are over-analyzing this. The fact that their party numbered an unlucky 13 (a superstition widely established long before Tolkien wrote The Hobbit) paves the way for recruiting Bilbo as the 14th member—which is both a simple and obvious answer. Why look for mysteries where there are none?
 
@The Big Peat Good topic.

@JNG01 Thanks for the link.

@Teresa Edgerton You posted while I was finishing reading the linked thread.

I tend to agree with Teresa. I think the number thirteen was a convenient and understandable plot device for Tolkien's son and young readers who quickly identify with Bilbo's suspicious nature about dwarves and their strange and superstitious ways.
 
Maybe this is mentioned in one of the linked items. Bilbo refers to himself as the Lucky Number when Smaug asks who he is, and Bilbo is canny enough to know that you shouldn’t tell a dragon your real name. I don’t know if JRRT set that up from the outset. But Bilbo’s “luck” is a key element in the book.
 
I think people are over-analyzing this. The fact that their party numbered an unlucky 13 (a superstition widely established long before Tolkien wrote The Hobbit) paves the way for recruiting Bilbo as the 14th member—which is both a simple and obvious answer. Why look for mysteries where there are none?

Almost definitely, but there's enough little references in there I thought it worth checking to see if it was one of them.
 
I wouldn't say with any certainty, but I understand the number 13 became unlucky, because there were 13 at the Last Supper. (Jesus, and the twelve apostles") Given Tolkien's strong Christian convictions there might be something there.
 
I wouldn't say with any certainty, but I understand the number 13 became unlucky, because there were 13 at the Last Supper. (Jesus, and the twelve apostles") Given Tolkien's strong Christian convictions there might be something there.

Bilbo beaome the 14th member for reasons luck.
 
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I wouldn't say with any certainty, but I understand the number 13 became unlucky, because there were 13 at the Last Supper. (Jesus, and the twelve apostles") Given Tolkien's strong Christian convictions there might be something there.
Apparently, that is indeed how 13 came to be seen as unlucky, but this a notion that only developed in the 17th century: NPR Choice page
 
What is really interesting is that idea that there were only 13 at that supper is almost certainly wrong.

51 A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, 52 he fled naked, leaving his garment behind. Mark 14:51-52.

In context this man was in the garden with Jesus following the supper where he took "his disciples" after the supper. To have gone with Jesus immediately after the meal he would have had to at least been in the house. This is likely John "Mark," the Mark for whom this gospel is named. There is little other reason for this seemingly trivial fact to be stated. And in Acts we read that the disciples after the resurrection gather in an upper room belonging to the mother of John Mark. If this was a seder as it surely was, everyone would likely have been there as it is a communal meal. Odds are excellent that the people sharing this meal were more, and possibly several more than 12.
 
Good info, Parson. And straying farther off topic... There is a lot of importance attached to that one meal, but we're focusing on Judas who was identified as Jesus' betrayer for anyone paying attention. Judas' dissatisfaction with Jesus began sometime before the Last Supper... did the concept of the unlucky number 13 come from just the dinner or from Judas role over three years and his subsequent betrayal?
 
May I just warn everyone that this line of discussion may lead to a new Dan Brown novel.
 
If we are seriously asking this question, we need to ask why there is only one dwarf in LOTR. Spooky or what? Probably a metaphor for something or other.
 
Crypto double-dwarves in drag doing the dwarf equivalent of a pantomime donkey need to be counted separately. Obvs.
 
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@Brian G Turner With all due respect, we could move into religious discussions from here, but I do not think we're there. (I do appreciate the gentle reminder instead of a ban hammer. But please slap me, electronically, if I overstep my bounds.)

To me, superstition and religion can be separate. I am just trying to understand how one dinner with Judas evolved into a powerful superstition of western civilization. I'd never thought of it before and the connection does not seem rational to me. But perhaps by definition, superstitions are not completely rational.

After college, I lived in Taiwan for two years. I worked for a school during my first year and for a business during the second. In both cases, my employers supplied my residences. Both were on the seventh floors of apartment buildings, but the second did not have a fourth floor. Many buildings in Chinese culture, especially hotels and hospitals, do not have a fourth floor. In Mandarin Chinese, the number four is pronounced the same as death. So they avoid speaking of living on the death floor.... This is a superstition I can understand.

I can more readily understand ladders and black cats, but tossing salt, knocking on wood, and the number thirteen are incomprehensible to me.

It's probably unfair of me to demand answers here without at least doing some poking around the netweb on my own. So here's a blurb from the PsychicLibrary:

There is a term for a fear of the number 13 triskaidekaphobia, of Greek origin. The term for a fear of Friday the 13th is paraskevidekatriaphobia.


Across many cultures, the belief that the number 13 is evil and brings bad luck is so strong that many hotels, office and apartment buildings do not have or recognize a 13th floor, airports usually do not have a 13th gate and many people stay home on Friday the 13th.


The Chinese and ancient Egyptians believed the number 13 brings good fortune. The Egyptians believed in 12 stages in life toward spiritual enlightenment. The 13th stage was the eternal afterlife. In this sense, death was not a place of fear, but a place of high regard for the afterlife.


One theory about why this negative belief about the number 13 exists is that Judas, who betrayed Jesus, was the 13th person to be seated at the Last Supper.


In 1881, a group of New Yorkers set out to debunk this and all other superstitions and formed a group called the Thirteen Club. Its first meeting took place on Friday the 13th at 8:13 pm and 13 people sat down to dinner in room number 13. To get into the room each guest walked under a ladder and sat down around piles of spilled salt. Needless to say, all of the guests survived. For the next 40 years, Thirteen Clubs cropped up all over the U.S., but then faded from popularity.

Here's a quote from How Stuff Works:

The superstition associated with the number 13 is so common that it even has its very own name, albeit one you probably can't pronounce: triskaidekaphobia. People are so afraid of this seemingly innocent number that the United States economy loses almost a billion dollars in business every time Friday the 13th rolls around. It also explains why more than 80 percent of high-rises don't have a 13th floor: Architects skip straight from 12 to 14 to appease suspicious folks. So how did 13 get its spooky rep? It might date back to a Norse myth: When a 13th guest showed up to a party attended by 12 gods, one of the gods ended up dead, and tremendous destruction followed. The suspicion of the number 13 could also be blamed on Judas, who was the13th guest to make it to the Last Supper, and everyone knows how well that turned out.

History.com says that the Sumerians basic counting system was based on 12, not 10. Thus 12 was a number of completion and perfection, making 13 unbalanced and awkward.

On topic, I still agree with Teresa.
 

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