Remember when we were young....

[Jo Zebedee]

When I first joined the Chrons, about 6 years ago, most of the writing forum were aspiring writers. I came here because I was green as could be and it was a safe place to go. This week, I espoused the Chron's virtues for new writers to seek feedback and know it will be gentle - and developmental, of course. But always about building people up and not down.

Now, we're a different community. We have lots of published writers - huzzah for us! And we have lots of confident voices. We know all about point of view and opening hooks and things wot writers do. We've been through the forum for-writers-that-want-to-write-but-don't-know-how-to-well.

Now, I wonder - and I might be the only one who does, in which case pop me in the corner as the mad writer who witters to herself - if we're in danger of losing that feel. And whilst I'm posting about it today, this has been something I've noticed for a while.

Is it okay to post a thread asking about point of view and expect it to be answered? On a writer's forum? I think so - and I think, where people had the time, it has always been answered. There wasn't an expectation that that writer would go off and find it out for themselves, instead of asking - because asking is a way of learning.

Some of us learn by asking question. Some of us learn by doing, and doing it wrong, and then posting it up again and getting it a little more right each time. Some learn by critting others and seeing where we can fix that in our own work. Some learn by reading books, some from lectures. I could go on. But you get the picture.

I think, really, what I'm saying is perhaps keeping in mind that it's okay to be here and not know things and have to ask. And it's okay to not know how to fix our writing and ask again. Or not to follow advice and guidance given - maybe because we don't yet understand it, or we can't afford to go buy that recommended book, or that we're just not yet ready to embrace what's being said. (But not ad finitum; sometimes the answers run out.)

I suppose what I'm really saying is we're a maturing writing community. That's scary enough for people to come into. Published authors can be terrifying to an aspiring writer in terms of the weight of their opinion and knowledge (when, really, we're all just still muddling along and trying to improve.)

Be kind. Remember when we knew nothing. That's all, really.

 

[The Big Peat]

I'd add that no questions means no discussion and no discussion equals a dying forum.

I don't know if this place is losing the feeling of being accessible to questions from newbie authors - but I do know there seem to be less interesting questions at the moment.

 

[Susan Boulton]

For a minute, Jo, I thought you were going to write about using your own childhood (or later) memories in your writing. This is something I have done a lot, especially in Hand of Glory. Maybe worthy of a thread, perhaps?

Anyway, as to critiques. I put something up in the critique section before Christmas, and I need to go back to it. (Both the thread and the story.) Personally I am very reluctant to comment on people's comments, because I feel everyone that has taken the time to read and post on my work deserves to have their opinion considered seriously.

Even though I have two books and a number of short stories published, I know I am not a natural writer in some respects. Oh, I can come up with the ideas, the characters, write the story and end up with drafts of 200,000 words of a rambling adventure. It is the editing, the tightening of the story, and the grammar, (oh the grammar). I find very hard to do. I often don't get this right. And I still worry about this with regards with everything I have had published.

My self-confidence, can and often does hit rock bottom. More so now than when I started writing, because when I started, the stories I wrote were just for me. I wrote thousands of words on small forums of about a dozen hobby writers like me. I never believed I would be published. Now I have I find it harder in many ways to write. I need to give myself permission to write rubbish, and to put up snippets for people to read, knowing that they are early days rubbish.

What I am trying to say this maybe is part of the reason I haven't done a critique here for a long time. I feel I don't know it all by a long chalk, and anything I did say would just be my opinion and total (insert rude word here that begins with, B.)

 

[Juliana]

I think we're always learning, no matter how many books some of us may have published. And sometimes, questions (even ones you think you've seen asked a million times) raise new and interesting answers that make you look at things in a whole new way.

Be kind. Remember when we knew nothing. That's all, really.

There's always more to learn! And kindness should go without saying. A writing forum (or any other, really, but especially a creative forum like this one) is no place for mean comments. Realistic ones at times, yes, by all means. No point in lying on a crit, for instance. But not unnecessary harshness.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Tact is important when giving critiques. Being constructive, and being able to put our own tastes aside and asking ourselves "what is this writer attempting to do and and how close is he/she to achieving it" instead of trying to turn it into the kind of story that we would write.

No matter how many books any of us have written or published we can always be better, and there is still plenty that we have yet to learn.

Sometimes reading other people's answers to a new writer's questions can provide even those of us who have been writing the longest with new insights where we thought we knew it all, or formulating our own answers can cause us to think harder about some particular issue than we ever have before.

We can all benefit if new writers feel free to ask their questions. Not every question will trigger an interesting discussion, but how will we know until it's posted?

 

[Ragandar]

If it makes you feel any better, I haven't been around that long and I still felt like this is a place I could come to with my questions. It just so happens that most of my particular questions would pertain to, for example, the diet of city-folk in ancient Rome. I can find that out on my own pretty easily.

I'd mostly come here for the community and for questions about the process of writing. For that, the extra experience you've built up is nothing but helpful. That's the case for me anyway.

 

[The Big Peat]

*cough* Any good resources on the Roman diet? I found a few good ones, but I always like to double check my knowledge...

 

[Ronald T.]

I'd add that no questions means no discussion and no discussion equals a dying forum.

I don't know if this place is losing the feeling of being accessible to questions from newbie authors - but I do know there seem to be less interesting questions at the moment.

All I can say is...I find the questions endlessly fascinating. I am still trying to catch up on the many posts I find interesting. And although I'm a published author, I still think of myself as a newbie. As I research this forum, I find I'm forced to rethink my position on various issues everyday.

I would say to any new writers who are facing the task of improving your writing skills -- give yourself a gift and join The Chrons. You won't be sorry.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

*cough* Any good resources on the Roman diet? I found a few good ones, but I always like to double check my knowledge...

@thaddeus6th might be just the lad for that.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I aim to be as terrifying as possible, which is why all my author photos are in black-and-white.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

More so now than when I started writing, because when I started, the stories I wrote were just for me. I wrote thousands of words on small forums of about a dozen hobby writers like me. I never believed I would be published. Now I have I find it harder in many ways to write. I need to give myself permission to write rubbish, and to put up snippets for people to read, knowing that they are early days rubbish.

You have to forget your readers! - even though they are so important…

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I aim to be as terrifying as possible, which is why all my author photos are in black-and-white.

pssst. It's not working, Stephen. Sorry.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

pssst. It's not working, Stephen. Sorry.

you haven't seen me when I'm angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry…

 

[Hex]

We always like you, Stephen.

I remember when we were young and sweet too. Ah the fun we had with apostrophes and whether one could shrug with one shoulder and most especially (in my case) dialogue punctuation. What joy.

 

[HareBrain]

Don't forget the andless list!

 

[Ihe]

but I do know there seem to be less interesting questions at the moment.

Challenge accepted. I'll research and post the most technically confusing, controversial, meta-analytical monster issue I can think of--in the near future. Or the really far one. It depends.

 

[Hex]

Don't forget the andless list!

I can't believe I actually forgot that.

You know, the problem is that we don't have ten-page long threads on whether an andless list is a thing or a comma splice. Where have all the comma splices gone????

 

[millymollymo]

I aim to be as terrifying as possible, which is why all my author photos are in black-and-white.

Its not all down to the black and white image. Equally as terrifying in person...

 

[HareBrain]

Where have all the comma splices gone????

They're everywhere! You early adopters have worn the rest of us down to the point where we no longer notice them, or even (the horror!) occasionally use them ourselves.

 

[tinkerdan]

I once asked a favorite author of mine what his opinion was of forums like this and his response was that he was past that and didn't need them.
That was a bit sad, not because I thought he needed them; but because he could really be a help to those who do.

As to where we are in the scheme of things; I think that a lot devolves down to common courtesy and following the original guidelines.
We often stumble and have to look back and I really think a few people need to re-read the guidelines and a few others need to read them for the first time.

It's really easy to get frustrated with new people who don't seem to respond to any of the advice given and that has nothing to do with having published writers in the forum. It has to do with getting too comfortable with each other and in some cases diluting the effectiveness of critique because we know how certain people write and we end up patting them on the back too much. Conversely someone new might come in and we have to break out the band-aids for them and the first-aid kit's a bit short. This happens in forums like this and that's where the moderators come in to remind people to be polite and supportive first and then bring out the jaws that bite and claws that scratch.

I don't really think that it has anything to do with the fact that now we have and know who some of the published authors are, but rather its the same old thing that has always existed in these types of forums.

The person asking for critique is expected to remain respectful and non-argumentative (for very good reason).
And the person giving the critique sometimes oversteps the bounds and the moderators have to step in and make adjustments, but that's more transparent than anything else; so it can be a bit scarey to a new person to perceive unnecessary abuse that isn't addressed (even if it is; somewhere off camera).

Even asking for clarification from the critter can be a nail-biting situation (one has to be careful not to overstep the first rule).

Remember also that people have to wait (30 legitimate posts) before offering something for critique(which is common everywhere, yet I've always felt it strange here since often there are way more people crit-ting than those submitting. And often I've notice that rather than looking for help in grammar-where many need it-they are looking for some sort of advice about the plot and whether it's working. That makes it easy for frustration on both sides because the author sometimes doesn't get the answers they look for and just as often the critter perceives someone putting the same stuff out time after time with no apparent improvement.

I do think it's a mistake to let people put, in the critique portion, something that is published- or even has been submitted to a contest, because I'm suspicious as to just what it is they might want other than a pat on the back. All writers have their babies and even after disposing of many of those there will be a few that make it into the final piece. Somehow I can't see where a work submitted to publication would make them less resistant to change suggested by someone in a forum like this.

I recently had a question on something previously published and I put it in a different thread area and really received some good instructive response. In that case I was actually looking for grammar problems and that's the forum I stuck the thing in.

The rules haven't changed.
Some of the players have. Some have grown. Some have grown comfortable together.

Perhaps some even are beginning to think like my aforementioned favorite author.
Perhaps it's time to move on...but that would only pertain if you aren't interested in helping others learn.