David Gemmell's Troy series

Absolutely loved the trilogy. Probably DG's best work. He really did save his best till last. The fight scene between Hector and Achilles was great. I feel the only thing he missed out on, was a scene, not necessarily fighting, between Helikaon and Achilles. Maybe a few words after they helped rescue that man. Forget his name just now!!
 
Hello everyone! I am new here and I just saw this thread. It's been a while since I 've been wondering whether to buy this trilogy, but as I am a fan of classical fantasy, I am not sure whether it is what I am looking for.

Can somebody tell me if this is an alternative history or a fantasy story placed in a real historic place and time? What are the fantasy elements in it?

Thanks in advance for all the information! :)
 
It is an alternative story of Troy, I don't know if that counts as history since the original was also a story.
I suppose you could consider Oracles and prophecies fantasy, but then they were well known in history.
Gemmell was one of the most enthralling authors I have ever had the pleasure of reading, so I highly recommend all his work.
 
nj1 said:
I think this part of the story was just to add to the point that this was the end of an era? Bronze weapons were on the way out with the invetion of steel and this was probably the last big war where bronze was the primary weapon?
Although by reading other books on this timeframe, I thought that the steel sword was invented by the Barbarians who later invaded Greece? Maybe one of the other people on this site will know where steel was invented?
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According to some site I came across once, the Hittites of Central Asia Minor might have discovered the way to make steel as as early as 3,000 BC. But they somehow managed to keep their discovery from others for quite a long time.

The Trojan war, for instance, only occurred ca 1250 - 1350 BC. If that site was correct, what this means is that in the Battle of Kadesh between the Hittite Kingdom n the Egyptians, also supposed to have taken place around the same time, the Hittites would have been using hard steel swords while the Egyptians were still using outdated, soft bronze.

That didnt seem to have influenced the outcome that much though, for Kadesh was widely accepted by scholars as a drawn war. Despite numerous inscriptions of Pharaoh Rameses trumpeting an Egyptian 'victory'.
 
***Series Spoilers below!!***


I really loved the way Gemmell rationalised so much of The Iliad legend into a viable history, and how he connected other major events together with it - not least the destruction of Thera, and of Moses.

Troy: Lord of the Silver Bow started especially well - loved the character of Odyssues - but I found the battle towards the end a little tiring, and it was if I was reading a repeat of Legend.

Troy: Shield of Thunder was even better - brimming with intrigue and character, especially Kassandra and Halysia, and the general workings of Troy. Also, Banockles.

But Troy: Fall of Kings really tested my patience. There's a long section in the middle of the book which is just minor characters fighting and fighting and fighting and fighting and fighting - none of which is very significant.

Some of the deviations from The Iliad were also frustrating - the Trojan Horse and Wooden Horse meanings were clever, but the fight between Achilles and Hecktor was a disappointment, not least that Achilles was poisoned, rather than dragged Hecktor's body around the walls - which was a major part of The Iliad. I also expected the love triangle between Hecktor, Helikaon, and Andromache, to contribute to Hecktor's defeat, but it didn't seem to come up during the fight.

I also got frustrated with the character development - Xander never really does anything or wants anything; Odysseus rails about how terrible it is to side with Agamemnon and then designs his battles; Andromache never seems to have developed into a mother - she barely has any maternal feelings, instead remaining wholly focused on Helikaon. And Khalkeus simply dies, having achieved nothing with his iron smithing.

There's too much of characters wandering about, simply observing what's happening for the reader - and repeating and repeating things for the reader who hadn't read the two previous books.

Also, the Thera and Moses storylines just come in suddenly at the end, without any real development - the entire series started with Gerhsom - surely we could have seen a bit more of him in the third book, other than a single POV scene at the end?

Overall, I really enjoyed the first two books, and hoped for great things from the third. But it really did have an unfinished quality to it. Of course, the death of David Gemmell is more than excuse enough for that. I just found the third book somewhat disappointing, compared to the peak of the second book.

Despite that complaint, IMO David Gemmell still remains my favourite author, and one of the best fantasy writers - his worst writing is comparable to the best of other authors. However, Troy has a more epic cast list than his usual stories, and I can't help but feel that he struggled to keep focus with such a complex work.
 
Just in case that post came across a little negative - David Gemmell did an astonishing job with trying to tie up The Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeniad together, along with some of the Old Testament, Egyptology, and the destruction of Santorini (Thera) and its effect on the Mediterranean - in a way that connected them all together in a potentially viable historical sense. It must have been a Herculean task.

My main grumbles are primarily two issues:

1. We never really see characters develop enough through the books, in a way I'm accustomed to seeing in epic fantasy
2. A bit too much focus on minor characters fighting in Book 3

I guess both criticisms are easily addressed by the facts that,

1. David Gemmell was used to writing heroic fantasy that primarily revolves around a single character, with a supporting cast, and applied the same principle to this epic series
2. If he had lived, he might have edited down some of the content to help improve focus.

But, overall, hats off to the man for attempting such an astonishing project. I did very much enjoy the first two books, and Stella Gemmell did a sterling job of ensuring that the series could at least be finished and published.
 
The criticism are fair. For me, the third book doesn't tarnish what the trilogy as a whole achieves. Probably one of my favourite pieces of historical fiction which, considering it doesn't feature massive amounts of archery, is astounding :)
 
I'd just like to say that, firstly I agree with most of what people have said. I thought the Iliad was expertly woven into a terrific historical fiction with fantasy elements. I agree Brian, I do think it's fair to say he lost his way a little with some of the characters in his enormous cast. I would also like to add the whole nature of the inclusion of the rise of iron*/thera/Moses/fall of troy/dawn of Rome thing (for want of a better term) it's about then end of an age and the beginning of a new one. (To add to this maybe he could have hinted a little somewhere about the incoming 'Doric' Greeks and their imminent conquest of the Myceneans.) All of these elements point towards the ending of a very old established order of the world and and the birth of a new world order. I loved that theme, it was great!

*We are talking about Iron, not Steel as some have erroneously stated. Steel came about by accident around 1500 years later, in the Roman Empire, and then properly a few centuries after that when the Arabs (I think) perfected the art.
 
Hi All,

Can't really add much more about how much I enjoyed this series. It's the one I recommend whenever someone asks me which hist/fantasy books they should try next.

Just wanted to add my tuppence on a couple of details (because I'm reading up on this era as we speak :)):
-The Hittites did have access to raw iron, but so did the other great powers of the time. Indeed, ingots of iron would have been traded in the markets of Ugarit (the hub of commerce between Hatti, Assyria and Egypt), but it wasn't the worked, superior iron of future eras and it certainly wasn't stronger than bronze at this time. Essentially, bronze was still king!
-The fall of Mycenae is followed by the arrival of the Dorians in the Greek mainland, but there is a gap. It looks like Mycenae fell prior to the Dorian's arrival, as a result of the 'Sea Peoples' invasion (a people of very, very blurred and uncertain origins). The Sea Peoples then went on to topple the Hittite Empire, batter Assyria and raze the Syrian kingdoms, only being halted when they tried to take on the Egyptian navy in the Nile Delta (though they seriously bruised the Egyptians too).

Anyway, hope that's a useful contribution.

Cheers (y)
 
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Gordon Doherty said:
Can't really add much more about how much I enjoyed this series. It's the one I recommend whenever someone asks me which hist/fantasy books they should try next.
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Welcome to chronicles, Gordon. :) I have your Byzantine series on my watch list - hopefully to buy after Christmas. I can never get enough Constantinople in fiction. :D

Good to see more opinions on David Gemmell's novels, too. :)
 
I think some of the frustrations for the third book in this series may be down to Stella finishing it. She is a fine writer, and I recommend The City, but there were bound to be inconsistencies.
 
For those desperate for more unread Gemmell, there is a book by him published under the pseudonym of Ross Harding in the early 90s. It is called White Knight Black Swan and is a crime thriller set in 1980s London. Clearly his style when you read it with very typical Gemmell characters. Sadly it had a very limited print run in paperback and has never been republished, so copies can sell for several hundred pounds (perhaps only beaten in cost by the incredibly rare 1st edition hardback of Legend).
Keep an eye out in charity shops though, the odd one has found itself there for an incredible bargain!
Sorry for the slightly of topic post. The Troy trilogy was fantastic, many a time I felt this is how it should have happened, especially the Trojan Horse which was simple brilliance.
 
Brian Turner said:
Welcome to chronicles, Gordon. :) I have your Byzantine series on my watch list - hopefully to buy after Christmas. I can never get enough Constantinople in fiction. :D

Good to see more opinions on David Gemmell's novels, too. :)
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Funnily enough, DG was planning to write a novel about a Byzantine warrior after the Troy books. (Mentioned in an interview he did at the release of the first Troy as I recall). Sadly it never came to pass, including a War of the Twins novel that he was finally toying with writing.
 
It's interesting that Gemmell was moving away from fantasy and into historical fiction before he died. The trend these days seems to be the other way. As a reader, I freely move between the two genres. But it would be nice to see more love for (or even acceptance of) historical fiction from fantasy fans.
 
I agree; and I think he originally avoided it since he wanted to craft his own stories without falling foul of historical inaccuracies and the like. With his increasing success, I guess he could call on a greater number or researchers and test readers to make accurate historical fiction easier to write.
Incidentally, I have found Bernard Cornwell's Warlord trilogy to be a good gateway into historical fiction. Its based on what little fact we have about King Arthur's era with just a tiny bit of magic hidden in. Another one of those books where you feel that this is what would of happened back then.
 
AndyC said:
I agree; and I think he originally avoided it since he wanted to craft his own stories without falling foul of historical inaccuracies and the like. With his increasing success, I guess he could call on a greater number or researchers and test readers to make accurate historical fiction easier to write.
Incidentally, I have found Bernard Cornwell's Warlord trilogy to be a good gateway into historical fiction. Its based on what little fact we have about King Arthur's era with just a tiny bit of magic hidden in. Another one of those books where you feel that this is what would of happened back then.
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I think Lion of Macedon is one of DG's Finest works. It was a powerful story and afterwards I was left hoping that Gemmell would write more HF.

The Warlord Chronicles are brilliant. They satnd head and shoulders above all other Arthurian HF that I have read. But they are also as far from what life was like back in the 5\6th century as Malory's work is. Gripping stuff though.
 
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