Looking for Perspective on POV...

Really. Even tho all movies and shows do this. I guess some things just don't translate into film. :(
I think they're two different mediums. Books written for visuals a la a film generally don't have the depth most/many readers reach for a book for. But, also, I think there's a difference between no thoughts and a limited number of them?
 
What would it be called when the POV doesn't look in one anyone's thoughts?

Third-person objective. It was probably the most common point of view in fiction up until the late 19th century. Examples include Nathaniel Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter, Orwell's Animal Farm, Truman Capote's In Cold Blood, Ernest Hemingway's Hills Like White Elephants, and John Steinbeck’s Of Mice and Men. It can be a very powerful form of writing if you have A) readers willing and able to infer emotions from actions, and B) an author who has a mastery of physical description, dialog, and human behaviour. Both are less common today than in past.
 
But I still don't understand why you would want to write like that.

You want to focus on actions and behaviour, not thoughts about action. (The Scarlet Letter).

You want a detached perspective to make the story more ominous and horrifying than a tight, emotional POV. (The Lottery)

You want the reader to engage their own imagination and fill in the blanks about what the characters feel (Hills Like White Elephants).

You want to exploit the suspense of not knowing what characters are going to do. (The Maltese Falcon).

You're good enough at evoking emotion that you can do it without getting into the heads of characters (Of Mice and Men).

You want to present an allegorical story, not the emotional journey of a real person (Animal Farm).

You want the story to have a surreal, impressionistic, even biblical feel (Blood Meridian).
 
When I said "want to write like that" I was meaning in regards to the reception it would receive from readers. While all those books mentioned are great literary classics, I'd find it very hard to believe any of them would be offered a publishing deal if they were written and submitted today by some unknown author.

For instance, just a brief read through the sample of The Maltese Falcon available on Amazon shows an over abundance of adjectives and adverbs (a consequence of the distant PoV) that by todays expectations would cause it to be thrown straight into the editor's bin, which explains the critical reviews on Amazon mentioning excessive repeated description. Just looking at the higher rated 3 star reviews shows what I'm getting at. It's probably one of those novels that's best seen through rose-tinted glasses.

Whether or not people can still write as well as the esteemed classic authors of the past is debatable, and more to do with how we are taught to write now compared to back then. I also see it along the same lines as the music industry. Nostalgia makes us think about classics like The Beatles, The Doors, Pink Floyd, Queen, Rolling Stones, I could go on.... and we look at artists now and think they will never be as good. But if a new band came along, playing the same music as say, the Beatles, with all the same styles and tunes, it's very unlikely that they would even make it into the top charts. Their only fans would likely be those of us who can still remember the good ole days and can still show some respect towards that style of music.

Why would anybody want to set themselves up to fail like that? Times change, people's tastes change, and writing style has to change with it.
 
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Hi,

Hope I'm not one of the harsh critics. I do have an issue with 3rd omni and have pointed it out in a couple of crits here and elsewhere. The issue is head hopping as others have said. Done well this shouldn't be an issue, but too often those trying to write 3rd omni end up simply switching between one person's inner thoughts and anothers, often in the same paragraph, and as a reader I'm left floundering - Who am I reading? How did I get here? It's because they aren't writing third omni, they're writing third close from multiple perspectives.

My rule of thumb is 3rd close is best in most cases. Simply write all the head trips from one person's perspective and the actions in general and from his observation. If you want to use omni, don't go in any of the characters' heads. Instead stick strongly to a narrator - ie a person who is somehow completely connected to the story etc, but not a character within it. And it helps if the narrator has an individualistic POV. And sometimes it gives you the advantage of an aside which can be useful, humourous or informative eg "well I wouldn't have done it (narrator) but he leapt at the bad guy." However this can be done as well in third close, and often better. One of the best things about Moby Dick and the Island of Dr Moreau is the narrator POV. It's third close because they are characters in the works, but their perspective is that of an "everyman" (of Victorian times) and it works beautifully.

Cheers, Greg.
 
Third-person objective. It was probably the most common point of view in fiction up until the late 19th century

Yes, I was going to say that I'm re-reading Hardy's The Mayor of Casterbridge at the moment, and have been struck by how few of his characters' thoughts he describes. But even though he doesn't often tell you what those thoughts are, you know what they are from what the characters say or do, or how they act. And if you don't know, you have to work and guess. Like with real people!

I love well-done omni, though I don't believe I have the narrative voice to pull it off. For me as a reader, the problem with close third is that many characters' thoughts aren't really that interesting, and their voices, if realistic, are often less witty and eloquent than a skilled omni narrator's would be.
 
I started my WIP in first person present - what a minefield!

After 2 chapters I went back and changed it all to 3rd person close (past), it flowed so much better from there.

I'm reading The Wise Man's Fear - Patrick Rothfuss at the moment. Its kind of making me wish I'd gone for First Person Past.
 
First person present is a strange one. It feels kinda surreal, but I've always found it hard to get into reading a story done in that PoV.

Past tense has always felt more comfortable for me.
 
First person present is a strange one. It feels kinda surreal, but I've always found it hard to get into reading a story done in that PoV.

Past tense has always felt more comfortable for me.

There must be examples of decent 1st person present... anyone?

It did feel very strange to both read and write. Reading it back, you couldn't help notice that these things were not actually happening around you.
 
There must be examples of decent 1st person present... anyone?

I've read a few where it doesn't jar, but where I'm not sure it brought any advantage over first-past. (E.g. Hunger Games.)

The very best example I've come across was David Mitchell's Number9Dream (written before the current mostly-YA craze for first-person-present took off).
 
I've read a few where it doesn't jar, but where I'm not sure it brought any advantage over first-past. (E.g. Hunger Games.)

The very best example I've come across was David Mitchell's Number9Dream (written before the current mostly-YA craze for first-person-present took off).

Oops, I forgot The Hunger Games, I've read them. I agree, difficult to determine if it was better than past-tense in that case. Even so, I think she wrote present tense well.

Must read some David Mitchell - I really enjoyed The Cloud Atlas film recently.

Thanks @Jo Zebedee I will check out Hex's crit work :)
 
First, I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to post opinions, wisdom, and experiences. This forum is already proving to be 100x (that might be a conservative number) more informative and friendly than my past experience.

Second, between you all here (helping me to see the path I must take more clearly) and another user named Baylor (who engaged me in a separate conversation) I've picked up my book for the first time in at least 5 or 6 years and have started revising it, writing just over 1100 words in a couple of hours last night. To me, this is significant progress.

Thanks to you all and please continue giving me your thoughts. I'm enjoying them and learning from them.
 
Chrons does seem to be the cure of all ills, from writer's block to total blissful ignorance. I came from the latter to a position of at least knowing how much I still don't know. I'm working on that.

In my opinion, that puts you in a great and wise place.
 

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