A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

[MIDNIGHT]

Welcome Liopleurodon Yes I agree that there is more to Mormont's raven then meets the eye. Highly suspect that he is one of Brynden's "eyes" if not more. Really hoping that Jon Snow's savior is NOT Mellissandra, and more like the Children of the Forest. It was said that Bloodraven is a wizard so...... maybe he can help.

 

[Niolani]

Any of the Targs could blow the horn, it charred the guys lungs up but Targs are fire so it shouldn't do any harm. Plus if Jon is resurrected, he's not really mortal as such is he? But what will the watch do when he rises? Surely Mellisandre will have to take him away and do it in secret or they'll just kill him again.

 

[The Imp]

Any of the Targs could blow the horn, it charred the guys lungs up but Targs are fire so it shouldn't do any harm. Plus if Jon is resurrected, he's not really mortal as such is he? But what will the watch do when he rises? Surely Mellisandre will have to take him away and do it in secret or they'll just kill him again.

I'm still holding onto the theory that the horn that Sam has is the true Horn of Joramun, although i suppose that the way the horn works is to call a dragon and melt the wall, in which case the dragon horn that Victarian has might be the true horn.

 

[KidMT]

Any of the Targs could blow the horn, it charred the guys lungs up but Targs are fire so it shouldn't do any harm. Plus if Jon is resurrected, he's not really mortal as such is he? But what will the watch do when he rises? Surely Mellisandre will have to take him away and do it in secret or they'll just kill him again.

I read the warning from Moqorro to mean the following:
- anyone who blows the horn is likely to die (not clear whether this includes Targs or not... obviously they can die Maester Aemon did after all)
- the blowing of the horn will bind the beast to its master NOT only dragons (the story here specifically mentioned that Euron's mongrel who blew the horn and died also had a bird that flamed out right when he blew the horn) it's just that a dragon survives the binding...my view is that it doesn't matter who blows the horn as long as the dragon and its rider are within hearing of the sound. presumably the Valyrians used slaves to blow their dragon binding horns

 

[KidMT]

Presumably Bran is trying to warn Jon Snow thru Mormont's bird...

 

[KidMT]

Does anyone have a theory about what has happend to the Archmaester Marwyn during all this (he could not have been far behind Victarrion or is my timeline messed up)? Is the Citadel in league with anyone else in Westeros explicitely in opposition to Dragons, sorcery and the like? Is Varys an agent of the Citadel? At one point in GoT or CoK he told Tyrion all about how much he hated and committed himself to destroying all things supernatural... which wouldn't dovetail with loyalty to the Targs.

 

[Ursa major]

If we're asking questions....

Was Jorah's presence in that Selhorys whorehouse a matter of luck, or was he directed there by information from Benerro passed on by the Volantene crone?

 

[Bazza]

Good question ursa. I doubt we will ever know the answer but she did seem to think that Jorah was not trustworthy after she met him. What will happen when Jorah meets Dany again? Does he nurse vengeance for his rejection? Does she still despise him for a traitor and punish him for returning after being exiled?

 

[Bazza]

Does anyone have a theory about what has happend to the Archmaester Marwyn during all this (he could not have been far behind Victarrion or is my timeline messed up)? Is the Citadel in league with anyone else in Westeros explicitely in opposition to Dragons, sorcery and the like? Is Varys an agent of the Citadel? At one point in GoT or CoK he told Tyrion all about how much he hated and committed himself to destroying all things supernatural... which wouldn't dovetail with loyalty to the Targs.

I wonder about the fate of Marwyn as well, he was not included in quaithes warning of those that would follow the pale mare. Does he have contact with Quaithe through the glass candles? Quaithe did say that the glass candles were burning. Marwyn is the only one at the Citadel that has lit the glass candle. He must either have arrived in disguise or has not yet reached Meereen.

I don't think Varys is an agent of the citadel, hes a foreigner from across the narrow sea. He does despise anything associated with "magic" but I'm not sure that dragons are considered supernatural in this world. Just an extinct species of animals. Targaryens werent necessarily magical but godlike. It's all in the perspective. Evil and supernatural are just the terms those use for what they believe as those that come about outside their own convictions.

Another interesting side note. The nameless "goddess" that the Unsullied worship sounds like the same entity that Varys's genitals were sacrificed to. Are the Unsullied truly trustworthy? Or are they unwitting agents of the Other? What is the link there?

 

[Needle]

If we're asking questions....

Was Jorah's presence in that Selhorys whorehouse a matter of luck, or was he directed there by information from Benerro passed on by the Volantene crone?

I wonder too Ursa, I think he had to have just gotten luck though, don't think anyone could have known Tyrion would be there.

Good question ursa. I doubt we will ever know the answer but she did seem to think that Jorah was not trustworthy after she met him. What will happen when Jorah meets Dany again? Does he nurse vengeance for his rejection? Does she still despise him for a traitor and punish him for returning after being exiled?

Personally I feel the reunion will go well. Jorah truly came to care for Dany and regrets informing on her. I think he really just wants to be back with her. As for Dany, she misses him. She is still angry with him but I think when she actually sees him again she will be glad.

 

[JOVANENAD]

Why didn't Viserys and Dany got money,education and training like Aegon. It makes no sece Viserys was the rightfull, heir because Rhegar died before his father and was never king, by the low of the firstborn titles goes to next son if firstborn dies(even if he has children they are supposed to be of age and Aegon was not). And why did they kept them apart so the don't even know that other is alive? But i gues Spider had its reasons Aegon is the rightful heir and he is about to storm STORMS END? Denarys has the dragons, Victarion has the horn and Jon Snow is dead or dieing. Well I just hope I will live to see another book(I don't mean this in bad way good books require time) But I still have a feeling that Arya is going to kill them all.

 

[whiskeyntattoos]

I think Varys is a mummer, in GOT Ned makes comment of this. I don't think he is so much a Targ loyalist maybe his mummer Targ ,he did agree with king Robert in killing Dany. He is just playing the game he sees a chance for him and Illyrio to seize power.

Now can Dany bare children again.....

Mirri Maz Duur prophecy from Got
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east ~ Quentyn Martell
When the sea dries up ~ the Dothraki Sea
and the mountains crumble ~ the pyramids of Mereen

 

[svalbard]

I have just finished the book and overall I thought it was excellent. My only gripe is the dumbing down of characters, especially Jon. Why did he send away all of his most trusted companions? His recruitment of the Wildlings makes sense on a number of levels, but you would think that Jon would have worked out that he would need people he could trust implicitly about him to achieve his ends.

Dany's actions throughout the book made no sense. The chaining of the dragons came across as a rank amatuer mistake. She showed immense strength in her previous storyline arc, yet here in ADWD she seems to regress.

Janos Slynt getting his head lopped off was one of the highlights.

I think Alliser Thorne has a big role to play yet.

What to make of Ramsay's letter? Is Stannis truly dead, his army defeated?

Where has Davos gone too?

Is Robbett Glover ready to fall on Winterfell with an army?

Mr. Martin, please do not take another six years to write the next instalment.

 

[Needle]

I think Varys is a mummer, in GOT Ned makes comment of this. I don't think he is so much a Targ loyalist maybe his mummer Targ ,he did agree with king Robert in killing Dany. He is just playing the game he sees a chance for him and Illyrio to seize power.

Now can Dany bare children again.....

Mirri Maz Duur prophecy from Got
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east ~ Quentyn Martell
When the sea dries up ~ the Dothraki Sea
and the mountains crumble ~ the pyramids of Mereen

Varys did agree to having Dany killed, but if I remember right he also agreed with Littlefinger to offer a lordship instead of hiring Faceless or Sorrowful man, effectively saving her life. I agree he's got to be up to something but don't know how he would ever expect to gain more power, as he himself has said nobody trusts a spider.

I love, love your thoughts on the prophecy! As we know prophecy may always prove true, but not usually in a straight forward way. Your interpretation fits perfectly! Combined with it being made a point of that Dany was bleeding (which she seemed shocked and confused by) I believe you may indeed be right!!

 

[Tansy]

I thought Davos was off to rescue Rickon from Skagos?

 

[thaddeus6th]

Overall, I liked ADWD, some bits more than others.

I really liked the parts with Ramsay and Theon (who, in earlier books, I'd found tedious). I also liked the parts with Davos and Stannis, but Jon somewhat less so. Breaking his vows as Lord Commander after just annoying almost all his brothers and being warned he was in grave danger was a bit moronic.

I'm glad the dragons got free at the end, but Daenerys seemed a bit wimpier than in previous instalments, getting blown around by events instead of seizing control.

I didn't mind Aegon's (apparent) introduction. Hasn't the doubt over his death been mentioned before? Plus, Connington was a pretty good new character.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Finished it last night and overall enjoyed it - a frustration before is that the books seemed to be exploring wider and losing focus, but finally with ADWD it finally feels like it's all starting to come together.

Highlights:

Janos Slynt - ha!
Tyrion and Jon as always
Bran finally does something
Peripheral character POV's were limited, allowing main character POV's to carry the story - great!
- Manderley's pie!! (I'd already compared ASoIaF with Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus when describing it to friends - now it is!!)
Quentyn's visit to the dragons - the imagery of him noticing the whip burned, his hand on fire, and then the rest of himself. "Oh, he thought. Then he began screaming".
- Aegon!
- Victarion's complete ruthlessness at sea
- Cersei's inner defiance, not defeated
- the dragons as barely tame monsters


Complaints aren't really complaints - but I did feel Jon's actions became increasingly out of character, not least with trying to throw resources at saving thousands of Wildlings when he's already lost 12 ships to that and has no food to feed them anyway. And if it takes Obsidian and fire to kill the Others, what use will the Wildings be there? Surely a great way to help spread the Others behind the wall? Roose Bolton's letter shouldn't have been the prompt it was - he's had worse with his father beheaded, Robb murdered, and Winterfell burned. Still, he's stabbed, but doesn't seem likely he'd die so feels a bit pointless to a degree.

Also, throwing Aegon into the mix seemed more an attempt to distract from the R+L=J theory - helluva wild card to throw in - but otherwise enjoyed it.

Not sure why Mereen is taking up so much storytime, but it's clear we're going to need another volume to finish that, catch up with Samwell, Jaime, Brienne, etc, before we're even ready to see a volume with Daenerys in Westeros and all that will follow from that.

And Dany meeting with Khal Jhago - almost feels like GRRM admitting he shouldn't have killed Drogo, which left Dany totally out of the story arc afterwards - but that's a grumble.

Overall, though, very much enjoyed the book, the pace, the characters, the story - and most of all, that it all feels like it's going somewhere instead of focusing too much on peripheral events and characters.

 

[thaddeus6th]

On Slynt: I was very pleased that [MODERATED] got his head lopped off.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Btw, anyone notice the "comet" from AFFC was completely absent from ADWD? Would have thought it should have been quite visible to Jon, Tyrion, and Dany.

Now can Dany bare children again.....

Mirri Maz Duur prophecy from Got
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east ~ Quentyn Martell
When the sea dries up ~ the Dothraki Sea
and the mountains crumble ~ the pyramids of Mereen

Clever thought.

 

[Ursa major]

Why didn't Viserys and Dany got money,education and training like Aegon. It makes no sece Viserys was the rightfull, heir because Rhegar died before his father and was never king, by the low of the firstborn titles goes to next son if firstborn dies(even if he has children they are supposed to be of age and Aegon was not). And why did they kept them apart so the don't even know that other is alive? But i gues Spider had its reasons Aegon is the rightful heir and he is about to storm STORMS END? Denarys has the dragons, Victarion has the horn and Jon Snow is dead or dieing. Well I just hope I will live to see another book(I don't mean this in bad way good books require time) But I still have a feeling that Arya is going to kill them all.

I don't know why Viserys and Deny weren't educated in the same way as Aegon, but I can guess. Aegon, as the true heir** (see below), needed protection and Viserys and Dany were useful decoys, visible targets for Robert's ire that diverted him from looking for hidden ones.

In the case of inheriting power, it follows the first son, otherwise Stannis would have been the heir even if Joffrey had been Robert's. If there's a rule where the heir of the deceased heir is overlooked in favour of the heir's brother, I haven't noticed it, not in the books. (I'll admit that I may have missed it, so would be grateful if the relevant paragraphs could be identified.)


In the UK, some of whose history was one inspiration for ASoIaF, the crown can be inherited through dead intermediary once-heirs. If Prince Charles had died before his mother, and the Queen had died before Prince William came of age, we would have had a King William (and a regency) not a King Andrew.


** - Assuming he is the real Aegon.