Alien civilisations - less likely?

[Stephen Palmer]

?

that's hardly a definition...

 

[Vertigo]

I'm sticking with the current mantra: If there were anyone else out there, they would have dropped in by now. So, by definition, they cannot exist.

The problem with that "definition" is that we are here and unless we can find some physics that lets us get around the speed of light (unlikely in my opinion) we are unlikely to be going out there and dropping in on anybody else out there, which doesn't mean we don't exist.

So maybe there's lots of alien civilisations out there (personally I doubt it, but maybe) and they are faced with the same physics as us so have never been realistically able to go out visiting other civilisations.

As to why we haven't "heard" them, the timescales are very long and we, for example, are gradually getting much more efficient at how we transmit and receive radio. Within a decade or so I suspect we won't be blasting out very much in the way of undirected radio signals of a power strong enough to be picked up light years away. So maybe there's only a very small easily missed window of opportunity for detecting another civilisation by their radio emissions. They may be out there but we might never detect them. Personally I doubt there is much other intelligent life out there but for other reasons that I have expressed elsewhere, such as those that are the topic of this thread.

 

[clovis-man]

?

that's hardly a definition...

Nah. Just Fermi's conundrum. I would only say that mathematical models cannot be considered realistic when used to project the "odds". The word "likelihood" in and of itself begs the question.

 

[Anthony G Williams]

No, it's because I live in Canada.
I'm reading Uninvited Visitors -a biologist looks at UFOs,
and it talks about OOPOs- out-of-place objects -
stuff that fell on Earth, in the times before the Media was completely leashed, and the list is awesome.
Blood, metal cannisters, animals, weird things that took weeks to die, all kinds of junk. Barns carried away, Angel-hair, all sorts fun stuff floating down.
The best ones, which we heard about when it happened, were the chunks of living....stuff, that took weeks, or in one case, two years to die.
It gets crazy. Chickens disappear, then fish rain down. Were 'they' trying to be nice and pay back for stealing the chicken coop?
Also, the Philadelphia Experiment letters are looked at. What the h*ll happened there?

In years gone by, I read lots of books by people claiming the most amazing things and stating lots of evidence in support.

The problem was that none of the evidence was independently verified by anyone. It was basically hot air - and it doesn't sound as if anything has changed...

 

[Starbeast]

The problem was that none of the evidence was independently verified by anyone.

True, only the fortunate lucky few like astronauts get to see...........

​

The way these guy talk is no wonder why the NASA channel doen't show much of real time space with a clear picture, we always get mostly fuzzy black and white footage and long boring shots of mission control with personel standing around. Don't get me started about the so-called Earth Channel, no real time cameras with clear views of Earth there either. I clicked on that channel many times and I can't even make out the Earth, even though at the bottom of the screen it says "Earth View".

But of course, none of this proves the existence of alien space craft flying around constantly.​

 

[J Riff]

Why worry about saucers, when the alines would be down here, impersonating human beings and doing horrific things, because they were raised in an insect culture.
Once they get onto welfare, there's no stopping them.

 

[Starbeast]

Why worry about saucers, when the alines would be down here, impersonating human beings and doing horrific things, because they were raised in an insect culture.
Once they get onto welfare, there's no stopping them.

A few people have written books about aliens from elsewhere among us humans, some had worked in the government and said:

"What worries the governments is the fact that some alien races either look human or can appear to look human."

If this is true, how would the average person know who is human and who isn't? Are they here to observe people close up or are they up to no good? Sometimes I think about how cruel humans can be to one another, maybe the outworlders want to analyze us because we do such unspeakable things to each other without care.

 

[Anthony G Williams]

True, only the fortunate lucky few like astronauts get to see...........

But of course, none of this proves the existence of alien space craft flying around constantly.​

You are right, it doesn't. Eyewitness evidence is notoriously unreliable and certainly never counts as "verified" by itself.

 

[Starbeast]

 

[J Riff]

Some things are too weird. People won't believe them, no matter what.
I think that every SF movie has an element of the truth, added together it's a real mess. Space-rats. Energy Vampires, protoplasmic leeches... all the things that might hang around a nice place like Earth. )

 

[Anthony G Williams]

You can't even rely on video evidence. Apart from the fact that most of it has been faked, even that which hasn't can be seriously misleading. I've posted this before but it bears repeating:

Many years ago there was a programme on UK TV concerning a UFO sighting. A passenger on an internal flight had a cine camera and had been filming out of the window. When the film was developed, he had a shock: a small dot in the distance rapidly enlarged to a lens-shaped object which briefly hovered alongside the plane before rushing away again at incredible speed. The film was shown on TV and it was extremely convincing; the image was sharp and clear, and there were irregular white markings which could not be identified along the rim of the object. The cameraman was entirely credible and was shaken by it himself. I was also rather shaken, because I've never seen such convincing evidence for what looked like an alien craft.

Fortunately the programme producer had an enquiring mind and was not disposed to jump to conclusions. He borrowed the man's camera, loaded it with the same type of film, and gave it to a professional cameraman who sat in the same seat of the same aeroplane following the same route, and started playing about with the camera. It wasn't long before he saw the same thing, and he discovered that he could make it come and go just by shifting position slightly.

A close inspection of the window revealed what was happening: the window glass had a bevelled edge, and this was refracting a distorted image of the tailplane, making a section of it appear to be detached and floating in mid-air. The white markings around the rim were just where the paint had worn off on the leading edge of the tailplane. So as the camera lens was moved slightly to one side of the bevelled area, the "UFO" could be made to appear and disappear.

That was a real object lesson, both in not believing what your eyes appear to be showing you, and in how to investigate such reports.

 

[Starbeast]

Unbelievable and no evidence......

Some things are too weird. People won't believe them, no matter what.

You can't even rely on video evidence.

You both are right. (excluding liars and hoaxers) How can a person speak of bizarre events and unearthly things that he or she has witnessed without being subjected to skepticism? Who would listen to someone ranting about uncanny circumstances that were experianced? It is near impossible.

To those out there who've seen or been a part of incredble things, they are the ones who have the memories that can never be forgotten. Some were inspired, while others were traumatized, both had their lives changed forever..........I salute them.

 

[Anthony G Williams]

Re: Unbelievable and no evidence......

To those out there who've seen or been a part of incredble things, they are the ones who have the memories that can never be forgotten.

Unfortunately both human perceptions and memory are frighteningly unreliable (memory in particular is extremely plastic, and people can be entirely wrong about what they firmly believe they remember).

This has been starkly demonstrated in various experiments (some shown on UK TV not long ago) involving incidents being "staged" in front of witnesses who were then interviewed about what they saw. Despite the incidents being staged right in front of them, in broad daylight, their recollections varied from being slightly to completely faulty.

This is why no one person's memories can be regarded as serious evidence unless they are corroborated by other sources of evidence - much more solid ones than memories.

 

[Starbeast]

The mind and beyond......

Unfortunately both human perceptions and memory are frighteningly unreliable (memory in particular is extremely plastic, and people can be entirely wrong about what they firmly believe they remember).

The mind is an amazing organ, using one's mental strength a person can break stone with their hands like martial artists, change the speed of their heartbeat like yoga masters, or even become intuned with nature like some native american indians. Yet, there are those who are born with mental deficiencies, some suffer from brain degeneration, while others abuse thier mind with drugs. And there are still some people who've gone through mental breakdowns do to trauma they've experianced, even others who are weak minded that have poor memories.

I agree that perception is also a factor, one person can see a plane in the sky while another swears it's an alien space ship. Strange atmospheric phenomenon, light reflections or even those who know nothing of astronomy can imagine all sorts of things.

I know you are a great skeptic Mr Williams, I think it's good that you question everything, I'm skeptical too, since I was a child. However I am aware there are things that are supernatural and beyond us, like God, I never try to convince anyone he exists. A person can read all of the holy books on Earth, and say those are just random thoughts of humans, therefore those books are worthless and God does not exist.

I've known something for a long time which I find very true in all things, if you're really trying to find what you are looking for, no matter how long it takes, you will eventually find an answer, if not the solution.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Even if it's a triliion-to-one chance that another planet evolved in a similar way to the Earth and developed life , there would still be lots of inhabited planets out there.

 

[clovis-man]

Somehow, just wiping his nose repeatedly and saying "Wow" and "Incredible" several times does not convince me of the veracity of the person supplying the assertions.

 

[Starbeast]

Somehow, just wiping his nose repeatedly and saying "Wow" and "Incredible" several times does not convince me of the veracity of the person supplying the assertions.

I live near Chicago, and this only one of the authentic UFO stories that made the news, and I found it interesting because the clip showed the news anchorman chatting about it before he went on the air. The employees who worked at Ohare airport were told not to talk about, yet civilians who witnessed this incident still talk about. A few employees from Ohare airport have come forward and were interviewed, but their identities were withheld. I saw it on local news and read about it in my local newspaper, according to all witnesses, a metallic looking saucer was seen hovering.

 

[J Riff]

Well, I've seen the stuff, so I'm out of the argument.
I'll bet 'they' are watching this city, right now, as there are huge swarms of people filling the streets for the hockey game.
Swarm, swarm..... ants like swarming. * )

 

[Starbeast]

Well, I've seen the stuff, so I'm out of the argument.
I'll bet 'they' are watching this city, right now, as there are huge swarms of people filling the streets for the hockey game.
Swarm, swarm..... ants like swarming. * )

Yeah, it's probably just the government messing with our heads again.

I'm not a hockey fan J Riff. Are you up for some 3 Stooges?

 

[clovis-man]

I live near Chicago, and this only one of the authentic UFO stories that made the news...

I think this all depends on what you would call authentic. I don't want to pull the thread way of track here, but just a group of people saying they saw something doesn't convince me. If authentic means "Yup! I seen 'em!", then sure. But if it means verifiable via independent data that is more than just a verbal account of a visual experience, this one doesn't qualify.

When I was in U.S. Army basic training at Fort Ord in the 1960s, I and my entire training platoon observed a UFO. It was at night and we were going through what was called an "infiltration course". We had to maintain absolute silence. So when the glowing object that traversed the entire horizon from west to east was sighted by us, it was difficult to maintain discipline. But we all saw it. The next day we snuck down to nab a newspaper and saw that it had been chalked up to a "missile from Vandenburg". Last time I checked, missiles didn't hug the horizon for three or four minutes from one side to the other like this one did. But you see my point: all the discussion and a couple of dollars may get you a cup of coffee, but that's all.