Henry Kuttner's influence on a HPL story?

[Tinsel]

I'm not sure why these authors didn't write fantasy horror as opposed to sword and sorcery because nothing beats Robert Howard and I like horror the best.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

I've never read any of the Northwest Smith stories; I'll look for Shambleau (I probably have it somewhere unread), I've looked it up and it seems like an intriguing little tale with a lot going on under the surface.

The Gallagher stories, when first published, were credited to Lewis Pargett, one of the psuedonyms jointly used by Moore & Kuttner. Moore claimed later on that these particular tales were all Kuttner's. In either case, they are some of the most successful examples of humour in SF I've read outside of Lafferty and, occasionally, Sheckley.

I read a couple of the Jirel stories and while they had all the elements of a good weird/heroic tale, I was probably looking for something a bit more on the lines of Leiber's Fafhrd & Grey Mouser tales, which I'd been reading a lot of when I first sampled Moore's work. More wit and whimsy I suppose, although those are by no means the only virtues of Leiber's excellent stories. With both GOLLUM and J.D. noting certain limitations in these stories but still recommending them, it would be churlish of me not to give them a second try.

Did Lovecraft ever comment on heroic fantasy/s&s and specifically why he himself never felt drawn to try his hand at the genre? Certainly, many in his circle did.

 

[GOLLUM]

I've never read any of the Northwest Smith stories; I'll look for Shambleau (I probably have it somewhere unread), I've looked it up and it seems like an intriguing little tale with a lot going on under the surface.

With both GOLLUM and J.D. noting certain limitations in these stories but still recommending them, it would be churlish of me not to give them a second try.

Well I had assumed you owned a copy of the Fantasy Masterwork edn, Black Gods and Scarlet Dreams, which features Moore's Northwest and Jirel stories. It definitely contains Shambleau. My mistake.....

Having said that, that story in particular has been reprinted many times, so you may well locate it in one of your existing publications.

I found Jirel difficult to empathise with because she seems to often make bad or silly decisions and there is a certain sameness to the stories but the prose and at times striking imagery Moore is able to invoke makes up for the central character's and associated plot's obvious flaws. Not great works of literature but significant enough to anyone wishing to better understand the development of the Genre and more specifically S&S.

Here's an interesting link I found by someone who is an obvious fan of the Jirel stories. It provides a history of them as they appeared in WTs and may provide some useful background detail for you to consider when re-analyzing these stories.

Black Gate » Jirel of Joiry: The Mother of Us All

Despite my earlier comments I would also encourage you to try some of her Northwest Smith stories of which Shambleau is probably the best.

 

[j d worthington]

I'm not sure why these authors didn't write fantasy horror as opposed to sword and sorcery because nothing beats Robert Howard and I like horror the best.

But these writers wrote what appealed to them the most, or what they could sell the most of, or a combination of both. And I wouldn't say nothing beats REH. Certainly he is one of the greats of the field, but he was also one of the earliest, and there have been many, many practitioners of this sort of tale since. Some are better writers than Howard; some are better storytellers, perhaps; but most of them are different from Howard. They aren't writing (or attempting to write) the same thing, which makes judging them by the standard of Howard a bit like the old apples and oranges idea.... Certainly Fritz Leiber, to name only one, was a much better writerspeaking in general literary terms than Howard, something with which Howard himself would almost certainly have agreed; in many ways, so was Andre Norton, not to mention Fletcher Pratt, Poul Anderson, Jack Vance, etc......

Did Lovecraft ever comment on heroic fantasy/s&s and specifically why he himself never felt drawn to try his hand at the genre? Certainly, many in his circle did.

Well, he did make comments about various stories by some of his compatriots in that field, which varied from quite favorable to occasionally cutting. And he certainly admired The Worm Ouroboros immensely, and was quite taken with the early, fragmentary versions of what Leiber was writing about Fafhrd and the Mouser (though he also offered constructive criticism there, as well)....

As for why he never attempted this sort of thing himself... it was quite alien to his entire aesthetic, really, in his own work. "Action-oriented" fiction was something he simply had no interest in writing (the chase in "Shadow Over Innsmouth" to the contrary notwithstanding). He discusses this point at great length in several of his letters, especially with Howard and E. Hoffmann Price....

 

[Tinsel]

Those authors are nothing compared to Howard's Hyboria, because there must be at least fourty books on Conan and his adventures, as well as board games, computer games, a large role playing game from the UK -mongoose publishing, etc.

There is no true fantasy horror series though unfortunately other than Ravenloft, but it isn't fully developed and it would have been better to make it more serious, it's for a lower age group, but going back to the books on Hyborea, they are basically the only choice other than a few smaller fantasy series.

Hold on here. I have a book called "Conan: The Rebel" written by Poul Anderson. It is copyrighted in 1980, making it one of the older books in the series.

 

[Tinsel]

His writing (Poul Anderson) is probably okay, but he is saying a lot very quickly. With Lovecraft there is a whole bunch of details, and the pace moves along with all that atmospheric support. Now Poul might be better than a writer that uses a lot of dialog, and talks about strange things as if a person is supposed to know what he is talking about, but Poul runs out ahead and it is difficult to follow. Instead of writing two books, he writes it in two chapters.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

OTT, but I wanted to put in a word regarding Poul Anderson...I am not sure at what stage of his career Anderson wrote his Conan pastiches, but the impressive thing about him, I thought, was that he kept working at his writing, improving constantly. Some of his later SF such as Harvest Of Stars or the magnificent Boat Of A Thousand Years are such wonderful pieces of literary craftsmanship.

 

[GOLLUM]

OH...I have Boat Of a Thousand Years but haven't read it yet. Sounds enticing! I'm going to promote it a few more rungs up the TBR ladder right now....

 

[j d worthington]

As far as I recall, Poul only wrote the one pastiche... part of that 6-volume set Bantam put out in the late 1970s-early 1980s. This was, in fact, the last of the six volumes, the others being:

Conan the Swordsman (s.c.: L. Sprague de Camp, Lin Carter, Björn Nyberg)
Conan the Liberator (n.: De Camp and Carter)
Conan: The Sword of Skelos (n.: Andrew J. Offutt -- a sequel to his Conan and the Sorcerer and Conan the Mercenary)
Conan: The Road of Kings (n.: Karl Edward Wagner)
Conan and the Spider God (n.: L. Sprague de Camp)

At any rate, I would hardly rank this among Poul's better works, Tinsel. I'd suggest you pick up The Broken Sword, Hrolf Kraki's Saga, The Merman's Children, or Three Hearts and Three Lions for an example of Anderson's s&s.

Incidentally, the number of books about a subject has nothing to do with quality, but merely popularity... and that is a notoriously fickle thing. I am by no means attempting to denigrate Howard's work or its importance in the field (I am a great admirer of the man's work, as a matter of fact; he is one of my favorite writers); merely pointing out that, as a critical criteria such is far too subjective and, generally speaking, ephemeral.

As far as Howard's own work dealing with the Hyborian Age... that has long been outstripped numerically by what has been written by others. Andre Norton's Witch World, however, was -- until her later years -- almost entirely her own, and remains one of the milestones in the s&s genre. The Worm Ouroboros is a classic of the genre, as well as a classic of fantasy as a whole, and influenced a large number of writers (including Fletcher Pratt and Robert E. Howard). Leiber had a much broader range than Howard, was certainly technically more proficient, and far exceeded him in literary ability and polish. And, again, his tales of Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are among the landmarks of the s&s genre, and a true delight, ranging from the farcical to the extremely grim to the wistfully poetic to the historical fantasy to some of the bawdiest things outside of the Arabian Nights. Pratt is immensely complex and deep; his writing style (especially in The Well of the Unicorn) makes Lovecraft at his densest look almost transparent, and he brought to his writing the knowledge of a professional historian (which he was). Jack Vance also has a wide range of styles, but much of his fantasy is in a quasi-lyrical manner which Howard could only do in small stretches. He also essentially created the "dying earth" type fantasy in its modern form.

Hence... each of these at least matched, often exceeded Howard, in many ways. The point is, though, that Howard was, while very important (and very good), hardly the summa bonum of sword-and-sorcery, let alone fantasy in its broader sense.

 

[Tinsel]

Half of the battle for me is finding the author that will keep me interested, and also out of trouble. Some authors whether or not they are the most talented just feel better to read. I have a number of Conan books here and I have some sense of the world that Howard created and I will try again to pick it up. I did read "The Phoenix on the Sword" recently and it went well. Some people are probably very familiar with the world of Conan and they can handle the assortment of Conan titles. The basics should be contained in Howard's short stories. It took me a while to accept them because they are very unique. I don't know any author that writes like he does. Too top it off, he was still smart after he did his boxing matches.

This Sprague character is another Poul. Hopefully he will get better too. There is one more thing that I was going to say and than hold my tounge, and that is that the works of Edgar Allen Poe are cumbersome, or did he just write a small collection? Well nobody talks about them ever.

 

[Connavar]

I have not read much Leiber's S&S, i agree REH didnt have literary range of say Vance but still i dont think anyone of the authors mentioned is close to him in Sword and Sorcery. Vance isnt that type of fantasy. He is more to the Lord Dunsany vien in his fantasy quasi-lyrical hehe well said.


Like HPL said no one beats him in stark fear,plus his vivid writing,at times beautiful prose. The same strenghts he use for his horror,historical stories.

In the end its about taste do you like weird,action oriented S&S or the other types.

 

[j d worthington]

Half of the battle for me is finding the author that will keep me interested, and also out of trouble. Some authors whether or not they are the most talented just feel better to read. I have a number of Conan books here and I have some sense of the world that Howard created and I will try again to pick it up. I did read "The Phoenix on the Sword" recently and it went well. Some people are probably very familiar with the world of Conan and they can handle the assortment of Conan titles. The basics should be contained in Howard's short stories. It took me a while to accept them because they are very unique. I don't know any author that writes like he does. Too top it off, he was still smart after he did his boxing matches.

This Sprague character is another Poul. Hopefully he will get better too. There is one more thing that I was going to say and than hold my tounge, and that is that the works of Edgar Allen Poe are cumbersome, or did he just write a small collection? Well nobody talks about them ever.

Well, yes, Howard was quite bright. Not necessarily educated, but very bright, and very talented. He was a complex, fascinating individual, and more often than not a fine writer.

The Hyborian Age of the Conan and Kull tales is rather complex in some ways, a melange of many culture and periods in history... but it hangs together rather well, overall.

I wonder if you've read other fantasies which Howard wrote... several of those are equally good, and often a good deal more poignant.

As for Sprague de Camp... the man died a few years ago, I'm afraid, after a very long life and career (his first book was published in serial form in 1939):

L. Sprague de Camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anderson has also passed on, and had a rather lengthy writing career himself:

Poul Anderson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I don't think they needed to improve, particularly -- at least, not in general (though individual works could have used such). They were each successful in both the remunerative and artistic sense; as I said, they were simply different from Howard or Lovecraft.

Speaking of which... Poe's work can be cumbersome at times, but overall he had a rich, often musical style (if somewhat florid)... and certainly he remains, after more than a century and a half, one of the greatest and most important writers America has ever produced. As for how much Poe produced (fiction, I won't bring in his verse or critical essays, etc.)... this:

Edgar Allan Poe Society of Baltimore - Works - Tales

And I'm not sure what you mean when you say nobody ever talks about them... Poe's name crops up here rather frequently, let alone other places; he is taught in schools; and his works still sell rather well; not to mention the number of adaptations (film, television, comics, music, etc.) which have been made of his works....

Connavar: I suppose it depends on one's definition of S&S. Certainly Vance saw himself in that light, as did most of his fellow writers, when it came to the Dying Earth and related types of tales. And, again, I would argue that, while different, several of those writers are on a level with or somewhat above REH when it comes to the field, at least in many ways. Some of them have been quite influential themselves, though Leiber, certainly, is almost impossible to imitate. Andre Norton has had an enormous impact on generations of readers; and so on...

Again, it depends on the perspective one is looking from....

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Anderson has also passed on, and had a rather lengthy writing career himself:

Poul Anderson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I don't think they needed to improve, particularly -- at least, not in general (though individual works could have used such). They were each successful in both the remunerative and artistic sense; as I said, they were simply different from Howard or Lovecraft.

Yes, what I wanted to highlight is that, unlike writers who perhaps peak early and then remain in a holding pattern, or in whose works one can see a falling-off of quality over the years, Anderson was growing as a writer well into his 70s. I admire this quality of his immensely and like to draw attention to it when possible.

 

[Tinsel]

That is who wrote the Conan books, Sprague De Camp, Ronald Green, Steve Perry, and Leonard Carpenter, also with Poul writing that one book as well.

It looks like De Camp wrote a book every year which must have been fun, but he was trained in technology, not the humanities. Just a different angle I guess.

 

[Connavar]

j. d. worthington

Dont misunderstand i have immense respect for influential,classic writers like Leiber,Norton. Vance is my alltime fav.

I dont care the popular view of S&S/heroic fantasy is REH's kind and not the other types. I just think his vibrant writing,characters are the best i have read in the subgenre.

 

[j d worthington]

That is who wrote the Conan books, Sprague De Camp, Ronald Green, Steve Perry, and Leonard Carpenter, also with Poul writing that one book as well.

It looks like De Camp wrote a book every year which must have been fun, but he was trained in technology, not the humanities. Just a different angle I guess.

Sometimes several. He wrote on all sorts of subjects, as well, and some of his books on mythical lands and the like are very entertaining and informative. His own s&s tends to be more humorous, witty, and ironic rather than the dark and brooding thing which REH did so well, but within that province he could be very good indeed. He also wrote a great deal of science fiction.

As for the training... very few writers are actually trained in the humanities. As the old saw has it, "A writer is born, not made". It isn't the training, it tends to be a natural inclination.... Writers, by being in that vocation (or avocation) have to be intensely curious about all manner of things, so whatever their original training is, it too becomes (as yet another old saw has it) "grist for the mill". A large number of sf writers were trained in some branch of the sciences (Asimov in biochemistry; Heinlein in engineering, etc.), though not all. Balzac was trained as a lawyer, if I remember correctly. E. R. Eddison was by profession a civil servant. And so on....

 

[Tinsel]

...but what was Edgar Allen Poe trained in? When he says something you have to strain and try to figure out what he just said. I listened to one of his talks on iTunes in the podcast section.

Well it looks like Asimov and De Camp knew each other and both worked for the military. They must of just been able to relax and pound out books. It was natural to them. Based on the number of books he wrote, he did a great job. Than again Lovecraft himself only wrote most of his stories in the last part of his life. They know how to churn them out.

Too bad that Poe didn't write any Conan books. That would be something to read.

 

[Connavar]

...but what was Edgar Allen Poe trained in? When he says something you have to strain and try to figure out what he just said. I listened to one of his talks on iTunes in the podcast section.

Well it looks like Asimov and De Camp knew each other and both worked for the military. They must of just been able to relax and pound out books. It was natural to them. Based on the number of books he wrote, he did a great job. Than again Lovecraft himself only wrote most of his stories in the last part of his life. They know how to churn them out.

Too bad that Poe didn't write any Conan books. That would be something to read.

You know when Poe was born ? You listened to his talks on Itunes ?

Are you talking about THE Edgar Allan Poe who died 160 years ago

 

[j d worthington]

...but what was Edgar Allen Poe trained in? When he says something you have to strain and try to figure out what he just said. I listened to one of his talks on iTunes in the podcast section.

Well it looks like Asimov and De Camp knew each other and both worked for the military. They must of just been able to relax and pound out books. It was natural to them. Based on the number of books he wrote, he did a great job. Than again Lovecraft himself only wrote most of his stories in the last part of his life. They know how to churn them out.

Too bad that Poe didn't write any Conan books. That would be something to read.

That last may be the understatement of the century. It's a mind-boggling concept, but for some reason I rather like it....

No, they most certainly weren't able to "relax and pound out the books". For many years Asimov was a professor of biochemistry, which took up an awful lot of his time. He was just one of those people who is a dynamo at producing work of all kinds. (Literally all kinds: science fiction, fantasy, mysteries, children's books, collections of "lecherous limericks", books on mathematics, the sciences, Shakespeare, the Bible, Gilbert & Sullivan......)

De Camp, as I recall, also worked in the field in which he was trained but, like so many writers, also had numerous other jobs as well to keep bread on the table while getting the writing to pay for itself.

Lovecraft, on the other hand, earned his pay almost exclusively as a revisionist/ghost writer... one of the more ignominious jobs connected with the world of letters... and wouldn't have been able to survive on what he got there, had he not also had a very modest inheritance he eked by on. (And I do mean eked by... there were times when he managed to get by on less than $15 per week -- and that includes food, lodgings, clothing, ink and paper, and any other expenses he might have.)

Due to circumstances connected with his stormy relationship to his adoptive father John Allan, Poe never completed his education at the University of Virginia, but his main strength there was with classical and romance languages... something which shows up quite a bit with his writing (even more with his nonfiction than his fiction).

Poe is a dense writer, but most often a very careful one, and his work repays close attention. However, if you aren't used to the literary style of the times, it will be difficult to follow until you acclimate yourself to it... then I think you'll find Poe extremely rewarding.

 

[Connavar]

Weird how Poe dense,oldish literary style of that century didnt bother me enough to adjust even. One of the first time i found pleasure in a dense writing style that didnt flow like the usual prose styles i liked.

I find him extremly rewarding and not only because his strong,vivid horror stories. His detective stories are timeless.