Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Narkalui]

There are 2 flaws in this, very well reasoned argument:

1: if Aerys had raped Lyanna and if Rheagar's primary concern was ending his father's mad reign then logically his first reaction would be to send a crow to Storm's End and Winterfell saying "I'm truly very sorry but my mad father has raped your betrothed/daughter and she may be pregnant. Join with me and we can end my father's evil tyranny." Bob Baratheon would have jumped at the chance closely followed by Rickard Stark. Then, knowing of Brandon 's betrothal to Cat, Rhaegar could expect house Tully to follow and house Arryn given Bob and Eddard's connection there. Plus he would have known that Dorne would also join from his marriage to Elia. That's 5 out of 7 instantly onside. And given LORD Tywin's long standing grudge with Aerys he also would have known that the Lannisters would at least stand aside if not join. Would Mace Tyrell really stand against 5 of the 7 kingdoms alone? he would be thinking. Doubtful. So if this were so, Rhaegar would barely notice a poor teenage rape victim. Only a golden ticket to achieve his ends. I simply cannot buy it that Rhaegar was so dim witted he couldn't see this opportunity.

Tbc

 

[Narkalui]

2: the war lasted 18 months. All of this time Lyanna was at TOJ and Aerys at KL. And Lyanna was apparently giving birth when Ned came to rescue her. I can't see Aerys travelling to the TOJ half way through a war just to rape her again.

I firmly believe in R+L=J. Remember, love and passion can do truly crazy things to people's heads!

 

[Boaz]

Nark, I dunno the timeline. For A+L=J, Jon needs to be older than Robb... not younger as everyone tells us. But I've always suspected (and I need it to be true so my theory works out) that Jon is older than Eddard claimed. He's smaller than Robb... so it'd be easy for people to believe him younger. Then there was a line that Jon used to try and convince Benjen to accept him into the NW that goes something like... "so and so says that bastards grow up faster than other kids". Jon was physically smaller, yet at least, if not more, intellectually developed than Robb.

As for Rhaegar telling the Starks what Aerys had done, that would automatically get Aerys killed... and probably everyone who presumably let it happen. The entire Small Council, the entire Kingsguard, Jon Connington the Hand, and probably Rhaegar himself... If five of the seven kingdoms allied to overthrow the King and Council, who's to say they'd stop there. Rhaegar, Viserys, Rhaella, Rhaenys, Aegon, and Daenerys could all have been easily executed. No, no, no. I'm guessing Rhaegar needed time to talk Lyanna into silence and into a plan with which to place the baby in a good situation... with the Daynes, or the Starks, or some other place far from King's Landing while Rhaegar dealt with Aerys in a manner that did not get everyone killed. Of course, it would have been best for the Targaryens if Rhaegar had talked Lyanna into an abortion. (I know it's not the place to air my views, so I will not give reasons, but for the record, personally, I am completely against abortion.) Maybe the reason he did not was because he saw this might be the fulfillment of ice and fire.

I dunno. I'm probably wrong with this theory... I've been wrong on everyone so far... except Tyraen Targaryen.... err, Hill.

 

[Narkalui]

I think you've got a good point about needing time to formulate a plan to stop a blood bath, but once again I just don't see it! I may be wrong though! I feel that Rheagar wasn't so naive that he couldn't see how charismatic he was and the effect his personality had on those around him. If that's so, then it follows that he might probably have believed he could inspire his coalition to show clemency, if not actually achieve such a result. Aerys under house arrest in Meagor's Holdfast for the rest of his life with Rhaegar as regent until then sounds realistic to me...

Thinking about this scenario almost makes me wish I could jump into Westeros at the time and make it so ha ha!

 

[Narkalui]

Oh yeah forgot to ask, who's Tyraen Hill? Oh yeah! Tyrion, dur!

 

[Boaz]

Rhaegar needed to control any attempt to remove Aerys II. If he could not control it, then he (and probably the entire Targaryen family) would be executed. And............... that's exactly what happened.

 

[Narkalui]

Hmmmmm, still not convinced but if you turn out to be right I shall publically declare myself wrong. Which does not happen very often!

I just read that back. I'm wrong quite often, I just don't admit it publically to all and sundry. But I will for you Boaz

 

[Boaz]

Ditto, Narky.

 

[Narkalui]

Ha ha, deal

 

[Reivax26]

Anyone here think the big bald monk that Brienne encountered might be Rhaegar? I have had that suspicion for a long time. I also believe that the leader of the sparrows is Howland Reed.

 

[Narkalui]

Do you mean the guy digging (I think a grave)? Dude, that's Sandor Clegane. First remember that everything GRRM puts in there goes in for reason. Then secondly, read that passage again. There's a line when the digger stops to try and pet a dog who dodges out of the way then the digger chuckles and carries on. That's a giant message to the readers: "this is the hound," and it's symbolic to show that 'The Hound' is no more and Sandor has found inner peace.

 

[Boaz]

Anyone here think the big bald monk that Brienne encountered might be Rhaegar? I have had that suspicion for a long time. I also believe that the leader of the sparrows is Howland Reed.

Reivax, you can find the Hound theory and discussion in these threads...

The Hound? (spoilers)

The Hound: A Theory

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Anyone here think the big bald monk that Brienne encountered might be Rhaegar? I have had that suspicion for a long time. I also believe that the leader of the sparrows is Howland Reed.

Do you mean the guy digging (I think a grave)? Dude, that's Sandor Clegane. First remember that everything GRRM puts in there goes in for reason. Then secondly, read that passage again. There's a line when the digger stops to try and pet a dog who dodges out of the way then the digger chuckles and carries on. That's a giant message to the readers: "this is the hound," and it's symbolic to show that 'The Hound' is no more and Sandor has found inner peace.

I think Reivax was referring to Elder Brother, the chief monk. The theory that he is Rheagar has popped up before, (I'm too lazy to find the original thread) but it basically boils down to him saying he was a soldier at the battle of the trident and washed up on the quiet isle naked. he goes on to say that he fought for Rheager, though Rheagar never knew his name, which could be his clever way of saying I never knew who I really was until I came to the quiet isle. It's an interesting theory and not without it's merit, though I do believe there was mention that Rheagar's body was burned, as befits a targ.

 

[Boaz]

A World of Ice and Fire has given us a whole slew of new information. One tidbit is that Rhaegar's body was burned in traditional Targaryen fashion. I know chaos reigns in war; procedures are suspended, law and order are dispensed by the victors, etc... But I find it hard to believe that Robert, in his fury for revenge, would have somehow allowed Rhaegar to live or to have knowingly burned a substitute. If Rhaegar was allowed to live and a body double was used, then Jon Arryn was behind it... and I cannot envision Arryn letting Rhaegar go free. After 300 years of Targ rule, the new Baratheon dynasty would not want to deal with legal claimants and pretenders.

The Elder Brother has also been guessed to be Gerion Lannister and Howland Reed. At this point, the HR theories point to Jaqen, Tom o'Sevens, the High Septon, the Elder Brother, Varys, and probably more... I'd like to take the Elder Brother at his word, but he's already lying about the Hound...

 

[Brian G Turner]

One tidbit is that Rhaegar's body was burned in traditional Targaryen fashion. I know chaos reigns in war; procedures are suspended, law and order are dispensed by the victors, etc... But I find it hard to believe that Robert, in his fury for revenge, would have somehow allowed Rhaegar to live or to have knowingly burned a substitute.

Well, if Rhaegar was a "true Targaryen" then attempting to dispose of the body through fire would be an act of gross negligence. Dany demonstrated that at the end of Game of Thrones.

The question is, did the body actually burn to ash?

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Well, if Rhaegar was a "true Targaryen" then attempting to dispose of the body through fire would be an act of gross negligence. Dany demonstrated that at the end of Game of Thrones.

The question is, did the body actually burn to ash?

Martin confirmed that Dany isn't exactly immune to fire. The end of Game of Thrones was a magic related thingy.

Also, Targaryens through the past were always burned in that fashion so nothing weird there.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I'm confused - so why was Dany invulnerable to Drogo's pyre? I presume there must be an explanation that keeps consistent? Didn't Dany think that "true Targs" were immune to fire, and commented so after the death of Viserys?

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I'm confused - so why was Dany invulnerable to Drogo's pyre? I presume there must be an explanation that keeps consistent? Didn't Dany think that "true Targs" were immune to fire, and commented so after the death of Viserys?

Granny: Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they "bond" to their dragons?

George_RR_Martin: Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.

Revanshe: So she won't be able to do it again?

George_RR_Martin: Probably not.

Source:
http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

There is also this
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/945/

Lastly, some fans are reading too much into the scene in GAME OF THRONES where the dragons are born -- which is to say, it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times.

http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm

Shaw: Are all the Targaryans immune to fire?

Martin: No, no Targaryans are immune to fire. The thing with Dany and the dragons, that was just a one-time magical event, very special and unique. The Targaryans can tolerate a bit more heat than most ordinary people, they like really hot baths and things like that, but that doesn't mean they're totally immune to fire, no. Dragons, on the other hand, are pretty much immune to fire.

Also, I just remembered that Rhaenyra Targaryen was a dragonrider of Syrax, was executed via Dragon Fire and fed to her step-brother's (Aegon II) dragon.

 

[Brian G Turner]

The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle

That's sad to see, because IIRC it was a constant thread in Dany's POV in Game of Thrones about Targs and fire. I surely hope that GRRM isn't saying that Dany's transformation with the dragons wasn't simply a deus ex machina to advance the story, and has no basis in consistency with the story - because that would pretty much undermine it.

I can only presume any explanation is therefore going to have to relate to the dragon eggs, or Mazura's magic? (Thinking aloud here.)

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

That's sad to see, because IIRC it was a constant thread in Dany's POV in Game of Thrones about Targs and fire. I surely hope that GRRM isn't saying that Dany's transformation with the dragons wasn't simply a deus ex machina to advance the story, and has no basis in consistency with the story - because that would pretty much undermine it.

I can only presume any explanation is therefore going to have to relate to the dragon eggs, or Mazura's magic? (Thinking aloud here.)

Because Targaryens are tied to fire and dragons. They also tend to dub themselves as dragons, but like Aerion Brightflame learned, they aren't immune to fire like dragons. Like GRRM said, Targs have above average resistance to heat, but that's about it.

Another thing is, Dany never showed resistance to fire aside from that one event which involved some deep magic and it might involve the bond between Targaryens and their bond to dragons. We still don't know the origins of that bond, but several stillborn children of Targaryen's had dragonlike features including Dany's baby and the daughter of Rhaenyra Targaryen. It might be that the magic invoked something in Dany's blood (blood of a Dragon) that allowed her to remain Unburnt. It is just a conjecture though.

It might also be connected to the magic of Asshai and/or Red Priests.