Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

Discussion in 'George R R Martin' started by zerohero, Dec 18, 2005.

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    zerohero

    zerohero New Member

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    Forgive me If this is already a topic here. Ever since the GOT Ive had a strong feeling that Jon Snow is not Ned Starks son. It came from all the passages of his Sister making him promise her something. I think Jon is Neds brother, and he only claimed him as his bastard in order to protect the Baby from Robert. Ive only read through the series once, so I might of missed something that disproves this theory, if not, tell me what you think of it.
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    Darkstar

    Darkstar The Sword of Night

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    Re: Jon Snow

    Well the biggest theory on Jon's parentage is that he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. That Rhaegar either raped Lyanna,as Robert believed, and that the son is the offspring of the rape. The other theory is that Rhaegar and Lyanna actually fell for each other and had a son (Jon ) but to keep the knowledge from Robert Lyanna made Ned promise to take him as his own son and never to tell the truth about his true parents. I tend to agree with that second theory.
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    zerohero

    zerohero New Member

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    Re: Jon Snow

    My theory is that they fell iin love, Rhaegar deffinatly seemes to have been a playa. Ive found the huge thread dealing with this, sorry about starting another thread on same stuff. It seems that this has already been discussed almost to death. I just found the series when I saw FFC in my local Borders. It looked cool so I picked it up, read the first chapter then went back to the store and bought paperbacks of the first three. Its deffinatly my favorite series now (only because there doesnt seem to be anymore Taltos novels coming )
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2005
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    asdar

    asdar New Member

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    Re: Jon Snow

    I'm not buying into the theory yet. I know the clues are all there and may be true but so much just doesn't sit well in my opinion.

    I understand why Ned would make such a promise to his dying sister. I don't understand why he wouldn't tell Catelynn at some point in the intervening 14 years. The first few years I understand, but there seems to be no reasoning behind not telling her when Jon reached a certain age.

    I guess you could argue that with her shunning him the deception seemed more real but I can't imagine not telling her at some point.

    Then there's the whole wall thing. Ned knew better than anyone what the wall was like, how could he send Jon there and not tell him about his heritage. I'm sure that Lyanna never made Ned promise not to ever tell her own son about her. Surely at that point Jon is a man and deserves that much.

    It might all come out as true but I'll hold back and hope that there actually was a woman for Ned.
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    ChasenFate

    ChasenFate New Member

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    Re: Jon Snow

    Maybe he didn't want Cat to think his sister was a slut. :eek:
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    Darkstar

    Darkstar The Sword of Night

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    Re: Jon Snow

    You know I have never gotten the impression from any of the books that Lyanna actually did love Robert. We all know the Robert really cared for Lyanna but not the other way around . The only real think I can from Lyanna is her telling Ned that she knew that Robert would never be faithful to her.
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    Winters_Sorrow

    Winters_Sorrow Unreg. Mutant Moderator Staff Member

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    Re: Jon Snow

    Well, Robert's hatred & fear of the Targaryen dynasty and fear of them returning would probably stay his hand for revealing Jon as Targaryen-born, if indeed he was. If Robert was willing to pay a fortune to kill a 12 yr old girl half a world away, I imagine he'd be less reluctant to kill a 15 yr old boy approaching manhood. Mercy has a price in Westeros - you just need to see the chaos of the Blackfyre rebellion to have that pointed out for you. Dorne may well have kidnapped Jon & married him to a Dornish princess whether he willed it or not. And besides, you saw how tempted Jon was by Winterfell, what greater glory the crown?
    Ned may well have seen the attractions of the Wall for Jon - no heirs (no rebellions in latter generations) and allow Jon to become a man of importance - after all, considering the calibre of men on the Wall, Ned must have known he'd stand a good chance of rising to the top (and staying out of sight of Robert).

    Oh, and welcome to the forums zerohero :)
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    JohnSnow

    JohnSnow JohnSnow

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    Re: Jon Snow

    These two things have plagued me. Jon has to be destined for more than King of the Great Ice Wall. It just doesn't add to the story enough for his character to end up as a bastard Lord Commander who can not take issue with any actions of the seven kingdoms. Way too much invested in the character.

    That considered, if he is someone of importance, Rheagar's saon, Brandon's son, etc., etc., then Catelyn should have been warned not to be such a b!tch to him (yes I still hate her) and sending Jon to the wall to make an oath that restricts him from any semblance of a normal life seems really foolish.

    All I know is aDwD needs to be released soon. Just finished aGoT again and moving on to aCoK.:D
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    Dolorous Edd

    Dolorous Edd Ever the optimist

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    Re: Jon Snow

    Sending Jon to the wall was the only choice Ned had, Catelyn had refused to keep him, and he couldn't take him with him, he couldn't refuse the position of Hand so where was Jon to go? Sure, he could have sent him to foster with Howland Reed or some other loyal bannerman, but remember that events were occuring so quickly that he wouldn't have had time for a messenger to be sent, return with an answer etc. etc. etc. When he learned that Jon had asked to join the Watch, it must have seemed an easy decision, and if it was Jon's wish he would have felt much less guilty about sending him to such a bleak place.

    As for telling Catelyn, if Jon is indeed Rahegar and Lyaan's child, and he had promised to protect the boy he wouldn't tell anyone he didn't have to. It would be too risky, the more people who know a secret the grater the chances are that it will be revealed. Ned was far too honourable and loved his sister too much to risk the exposure of jon's parentage just to make his life with his wife easier. I mean if he did love Ashara Dayne, then he had already "betrayed" Cat in spirit at least (to his mind, and hers), then i can easily see Noble Ned not telling her to allay her doubts about his love, because the question of Ashara would still remain, so she'd still have those same feelings of betrayal, they just wouldn't be directed at Jon. You see?

    I have no doubt that Ned intended to tell Jon of his heritage, at some point. His POV in the cells shows that his greatest wish was to be with Jon one last time. But i don't think Ned ever intended or wished for Jon to do anything about it. Locking him into the oaths of the watch was probably one of the things that swayed Ned's mind. He'd already fought one war over the iron throne, and unlike Cersei and the Lannisters Ned Stark was not a man obsessed with power and position, so i doubt very much he had visions of jon reclaiming his "birthright".

    Oh, and Robert Baratheon didn't love Lyana, he fancied her, then she died, and he became obsessed with the idea of her. Much like littlefinger. Had he actually married her he'd have gotten bored within 6 months and been back to his womanizing ways.
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    Raven

    Raven Corn!

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    Re: Jon Snow

    asdar: DE has the right of it. Ned didn't want Jon to claim his heritage. And I'm pretty sure Lyanna didn't either.

    The real question is: if Ned had ever intended or promised to Lyanna that Jon would claim the throne, why did he do nothing about it for fifteen years?

    Maybe, just maybe, Ned meant to give Jon a choice. But I doubt it. Sending him to the Wall ended that option anyway.

    As for not telling Cat: have none of you ever been in this kind of situation?

    Ned didn't know Cat at first. He certainly didn't know her well enough to trust her with a secret that could shake the realm, and lead to more war and death.

    Over the years, he grew to trust her, yes: but then he faced the issue of explaining to her why he had kept this secret from her all this time. That's hard to do. It could destroy her faith in him to find that he had been keeping secrets from her as long as she had known him.

    And by this time, it would have meant a change in Cat's attitude to Jon. That was another argument: not against telling her ever, but for delaying, and delaying, and delaying.

    I think Ned intended to tell Cat one day, as he did Jon. But he never got around to it. And then he lost the chance.
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    Boaz

    Boaz Thaphireth!

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    Re: Jon Snow

    Here are a few of my conflicting and contradictory thoughts on the subject:

    If Lyanna actually fell for Rhaegar, was it enough to overcome Ned's anger towards the Targaryen's for murdering his brother and father? I doubt it.

    If Lyanna was abducted and raped by Rhaegar and Lyanna plead for Jon's life, would Jon not be a daily reminder of the Targaryen's triple homicide's against his family? Yes.

    If Jon is actually Rhaegar's son, Ned might have let him take the black just for spite... while rationalizing to himself that it was actually continued mercy hiding Jon from Robert.

    We know that Robert had an obsessive hatred for the Targaryens that bordered on pathological. If Jon was Rhaegar's son, would he not alsos be Lyanna's son? Sure Robert might want to kill him... but part of Robert might want to cherish him and keep him as the only living part of Lyanna left to him.
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    Raven

    Raven Corn!

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    Re: Jon Snow

    Boaz: the only thing more fatal to Jon than Robert hating him would be Robert loving him. How do you imagine that would go down with the Lannisters? Or any one of a dozen others, for that matter?

    ETA - not that I think this would ever have been an issue, anyway. Can't see Robert placing love for Lyanna above hatred for Rhaegar.

    Ned never seems to be that angry towards the Targaryens as a whole. Aerys, perhaps, but never Rhaegar or any of the other Targs. And even wrt Aerys, he seems to have got past that in a way Robert never could. I doubt he would have a problem with sheltering Lyanna's child just because it also happened to be Rhaegar's. He has a much more forgiving and loving nature than Robert (ironically, despite their public images).

    And I really don't see Ned doing anything for spite. He is too honest with himself to rationalise something like that, anyway.
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    Boaz

    Boaz Thaphireth!

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    Re: Jon Snow

    Hmmmm, I wanted to add something to my post, but I don't seem to have an edit button available. Oh well, here's my double post.

    Cat's sister was a slut.

    Has anyone prognosticated that the reborn Azor Ahai might not be Stannis? Probably so. Well, if it's not Stannis, then who? Jon. Tyrion. Dany. Edric Storm. Pod. Brienne.

    And what was The Prince That Was Promised going to do? Is he going to rule over Westeros? Is he going to restore Magic? Is he going to rebuild Valyria? Or is he going to fight The Other?

    What if TPTWP and AA reborn are two sides of the same coin? Could they be two seperate prophecies aimed at the same target? Perhaps Rhaegar did not want to replace Aegon with Jon... perhaps Rhaegar wanted Jon to head The Night's Watch (Aemon conferred much with Rhaegar concerning this prophecy). If this was Rhaegar's plan, then perhaps this is the promise that Lyanna extracted from Ned... "Promise me you will raise Rhaegar's son to take the black."

    Perhaps these two prophecies refer to seperate persons... Aemon seemed certain that TPTWP is Dany. Could Dany (TPTWP) and Jon (AA) work together to fight The Other? Dany seems impervious to flame, possesses dragons, and loves mercy while Jon can be burnt (but is hardy against the cold), has a direwolf, uses dragonglass, and understands justice.

    Or is this all too convenient? Is Mance's son the fulfillment of a prophecy? How does Bran fit into the equation? Did Ned know of his own northern prophecies that guided him in his choices and promises?

    Meera and Jojen seem to know quite a bit about the adventures of Howland, Lyanna, Ned, Brandon, and Benjen when they were young. What will happen when they meet Jon. What will Meera and Jojen tell him? Will Jojen guide Jon in the ways of the warg? Will Jon guide Meera in the ways of love? What will Jon do when he finds Bran? Without a daughter, will Stannis betroth Shireen to Mance's son as heir to an allied Baratheon/Wildling kingdom? Will Melisandre demand Bran's blood or will she demand Jon's blood? Both seem to be legitimate/quasi-legitimate heirs of Winterfell and the title of King.

    You know nothing, Boaz, err, Jon Snow!

    Edit: Thanks Raven for your last post. You slipped it in while I was typing this one. I'm glad you're here to pick through my posts and glean the good ideas from the bad. Yes, Robert's love was the kiss of death to all... Jon Arryn, Ned, Lyanna, Barra.
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    the_faery_queen

    the_faery_queen New Member

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    Re: Jon Snow

    *cry* all of this makes me feel stupid. cos i read all the books (except the new one, i am saving that for the train ride home thursday) and i never picked up ANY of these twisty things that everone else seems to have :(
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    Boaz

    Boaz Thaphireth!

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    Re: Jon Snow

    Is it too late to say SPOILER ALERT?

    Faery Queen, don't sweat it. I never made many of these connections until I started reading them online.

    For instance, I always assumed Jon was Ned's bastard... now, I'm not sure. The potential list of parents includes Ned, Ned's father, Ashara Dayne, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Robert, Brandon, Benjen, Willa, Aerys, and Howland Reed. But now I scrutinize the parentage of most major characters... Tyrion, Dany, Robb's child, Edmure's child, Dickon Tarly?, Mance's child, and Robert Arryn all have at least a bit of mystery surrounding their parentage, imo.

    Also imo, the prophecies, dreams, and visions get people guessing.

    As to the topic, the OP asserts his belief that Jon is Ned's brother that needed to be protected from Robert... Well, this means that one of Ned's parents slept with a Targaryen to produce Jon. I don't know that there is really any evidence to support this at all.
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    the_faery_queen

    the_faery_queen New Member

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    Re: Jon Snow

    glad its not just me! its insane tho, i also got the best marks for my literature study essays at uni, and yet i miss EVERYTHING in fantasy books. i guess its because i am reading them for pleasure, not to study, so i tend to miss stuff and just believe that what is going on is what they say.
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    JohnSnow

    JohnSnow JohnSnow

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    Re: Jon Snow

    I still think that all of the "raise Jon to take the Black" theories only make sense in the case of Jon being a threat when he gets older due to his heritage. If he is the product of a Rheagar rape, or Lyanna whoring it up I don't see Ned being that patient. The Starks are a cold hearted people who don't take crap from anyone.

    I still think Snow goes on to something fairly important. I still like the idea of him hooking up with Danearys and them nuking every one in the seven kingdoms. Now that would be a song of ice and fire!

    the_faery_queen - I am reading through the books again now that I read what is said here, becuase I had just read for pleasure to start off. Now it is becoming an addiction!

    Boaz - couple things about your post(s)
    As far as the Azor Ahai goes I think Tyrion makes the most interesting possibility
    All of the Tullys are freakin nuts
    There are way to many dreams/prophesies/ etc. to all be true and relevant
    You crack me up with whole "is anyone's parentage truly known" paragraph! After 10 minutes on the board I had to call home and double check that my parents where on the up and up with me!:D
  18.  
    Boaz

    Boaz Thaphireth!

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    Re: Jon Snow

    JS, did not mean for you to take it that seriously.
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    Theorycraft

    Theorycraft New Member

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    Re: Jon Snow

    For me, the clearest indicator that Jon is someone extremely important comes from the Eddard sequence in A Game of Thrones after his leg has been broken. He is remembering when he had gone up to the Tower to face the last 3 members of the Kingsguard.

    Has anyone discussed before why these 3 knights were up at this isolated tower when they should have been guarding their King. They are the best of the guard, in fact Jaime Lannister would probably have been unable to kill Aerys if they had been present. At the end of the battle, only Howland Reed and Eddard survive. Eddard buries these men and tears down the tower they were guarding.

    Now what kind of important mission would have called away the 3 best members of the Kingsguard in the hour when the King needed them most? "We swore a vow" explained old Gerold Hightower... A vow to whom to do what? And why is this scene linked inextricably in Stark's mind to Lyanna's "promise me"?

    I'll argue that these members of the Kingsguard were there on Rhaegar's behest, protecting someone precious to him, the most precious thing to him, since he could not protect it himself. I think these things were his son and his lover. Nothing else seems remotely important enough to command these members of the Kingsguard, who would have been protecting his own life in battle.

    Further, how does Lyanna die? We hear repeatedly of her blood, the room with blood in it, the roses. Is it possible this blood is hers, from childbirth, not from violence? As far as I can remember, no one ever tells exactly how Lyanna died, but if anyone can remember differently please remind me. I think Jon's age fits with this event chronologically.

    I think the nail in the coffin to support this argument, for me, is the tale that Jojen and Meera tell to Bran as they are leading him North in A Storm of Swords. Remember, that Howland Reed is the only surviving person who knows exactly what happened at the Tower, and has thus far made no appearance in any kind of social setting, suggesting he disappeared after the event, perhaps at Eddard's behest. Bran wants the story to end "And the mystery knight should win the tourney, , defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty." Meera responds "She was, but that's a sadder story." Throughout, Jojen keeps prompting Bran, "are you sure your father never told you this story?"

    I believe this is the same event that we later hear another account of, told historically, where Rhaegar named Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty, and that he fell in love with her there. Of all the men in this series, the only two who Eddard really holds up as honoralbe are Howland Reed and Rhaegar Targaryen.

    Anyway, those are my thoughts, let me know what you think.
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    asdar

    asdar New Member

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    Re: Jon Snow

    I admit the facts are there. I've read them before, and I wouldn't blame GRRM for keeping the whole thing a secret.

    I think you're mistaking telling Catelyn with telling the world, but that doesn't change the signs that point in that direction. I'm not arguing the signs but rather the logic in Ned not telling Cat.

    The one area that her and Ned argue and he kept the secret for 14 years?

    If it's true that he did and Jon is from L+R then that supports my hatred for Cat a bit. If Ned wouldn't trust his own wife with whom he had 4 children what does that say for her character. :)

    On a similar topic, it's been said the name of Ned's girl was Wylla (sp), at least if I'm not mistaken. Does the Wylla we know from the story know the truth or is it just a common name they picked for storytelling purposes.

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