Elizabeth Moon - Deed of Paksenarrion

[Mark Robson]

It strikes me that whilst many here have discussed the merits of Jordan, Feist, Gemmell and Hobb, Elizabeth Moon remains undiscovered as a fantasy writer by many. It's true that the majority of her work has been in a Science Fiction series that I would not rate that highly, but she has written one work of epic fantasy that deserves some discussion. I speak, of course, of her series 'The Deed of Paksenarrion'.

I bought this in a single volume whilst on a trip to the US. It was an 1100 page monster in a trade paperback format with tightly packed script. The reviews on the cover spoke highly of the tolkienesque feel to the book. I'm not sure about tolkienesque, but I would certainly place this series in my top three of all time fantasy series... and I've read a few!

Paksenarrion (Pakse as she is called for most of the book) is a fascinating character. A sheepfarmer's daughter who runs away from home to avoid having to marry a neighbouring pig farmer's son, she joins a mercenary company to earn her living. Elizabeth Moon quite obviously researched military tactics, training and mentalities most thoroughly before writing this series. The detail and characterisation is marvellous. For those like Rune who like magic in a fantasy, they will not be disappointed. There are magic users as well as Paladins and Clerics (both good and evil) who have strange powers and the gods choose some to be their champions. I have been totally absorbed by this epic each time I've read it, and remain amazed that Elizabeth was not instantly hailed amongst fantasy readers as a new 'must read' author.

I think maybe a part of the failing of this series to gain prominence was the title of the first book, 'Sheepfarmer's Daughter'. I'd be intrigued to know how many would even consider buying a book with such a title unless it had come highly recommended. How important is the title of a book to you as a reader? Would a punchy title encourage you to try a new author? Would a weak, or unattractive title put you off? How important is the cover art to you when you're making a choice on which book you're going to spend your hard earned cash on?

I guess this just turned into market research - sorry!

 

[GOLLUM]

HMM.. I think I may have read this some while back. Can''t remember it that well which probably means I didn't rate it that highly but I guess that comes down to a matter of peronsal taste.

As far as artwork, title etc.. this has little or no effect on me in terms of purchasing a book. I have no interest in the look of the book or the way it's marketed (other than if it get's very good reveiws from people I respect) the only thing that counts for me is the CONTENT!!! . i.e the quality of writing, plot, characterization etc..

Having said that the only thing that may affect me is page length. That is to say as most members would know by now I'm into EPIC stories that go on for thousands of pages BUT only if they're any good and don't get mired in mediocrity like some of Jordan's more recent books in the WOT series... Basically if the book's good and of EPIC proportions and the writer has the ability to ensure the story doesn't sag or run out of steam then bring it on!!!!! the longer the better, 1,000 page plus books of quality rule in my world..

 

[Mark Robson]

Interesting that you would place the reviews above the visual impact. So who would you respect enough to be convinced to buy? Would it tend to be other well known authors, quality papers/magazines, or people that you know personally?

Can I also ask - once you've read a book by a new author and enjoyed it, do you then actively seek out other works by the same author, or do you just buy them if you happen to see them?

 

[GOLLUM]

Yeh basically I get a feel for a book by reading extracts, reviews from fan formus like this one, friends with a simliar taste in literature, booksellers I know, possibly specific award nominations etc.. BUT I'll still read something from the book before purchasing it. Usually I can get a pretty good handle on a book in the first 50 pages or so in terms of whether it's going to be to my liking or not. This technique over 25 years (mainly fantasy) has yielded about an 80% strike rate in terms of good to very good vs. bad/flops I've not necessarily been able to finish...

OK YES Once I've read something by a specifc author I'll usually seek out everything they've ever written because generally it's pretty good. Sometimes I've got hold of earlier series that were not as great but usually I'm not dissapointed. Having said that I'll only read these books if they're fantasy books so GRRM for example has writen in other Genres but I'm only interested in the current Song Of Ice and Fire series.

It can sometimes be other authors too. For example, Steven Erikson who I rate as my No .1 fantasy author had strong wraps for R Scott Bakker and Paul Kearney. Almost purely on the strength of Erikson I tried these 2 authors and they now sit amongst my favourites.

 

[Mark Robson]

Thanks, Gollum, that's really most useful. I'm guessing that others are influenced differently by title, cover, reviews and possibly price.

Given a choice between two books that look interesting, are similar in length and have both been written by authors you have not read before, what factors would influence you in making a choice of whether to buy one above the other? Or, if you decide to buy both, then how would you decide which you would read first?

 

[dwndrgn]

You know, I've heard of this book but never seen it around and definitely haven't read it. It sounds like something that I might like. I'll have to see if it is available somewhere around here and give it a try. I generally like the military themed ones and in fact am trying to get a hold of Mary Gentle's Grunts as we type

As far as titles and whatnot, inside the genre, I generally don't pay attention to the title (evidenced by the many times I remember a book but can't remember the title!). Bookcovers are only important in bookstores, IMO. When I'm going through the shelves at the local shop, I do tend to pick up those with interesting bookcovers. However, more and more often stores will shelve the books spine-out like a library and then the covers become even less important. In that case, the author and then the title become more important. Outside the genre, I don't even look at the covers, in fact I try not to. They are so horrible these days. I don't know what it is but they try to get so poetic with them that they just turn me off. So for those I rely more heavily upon my 'select few' reviewers.

Otherwise I rely upon the strength of my like for an author's previous works, the recommendations of friends (in forums like these) and a select few reviewers who give detailed information instead of just saying things like 'not good', 'best yet' etc.

If I'm just browsing online, the bookcover isn't terribly important but I do note it. Generally the actual 'blurb' from the publisher is what will either intrigue me or turn me off. If I'm intrigued, I really like the amazon feature 'look inside the book'. I've been pulled in a number of times by this, publishers must love it!

 

[Mark Robson]

As far as titles and whatnot, inside the genre, I generally don't pay attention to the title (evidenced by the many times I remember a book but can't remember the title!). Bookcovers are only important in bookstores, IMO. When I'm going through the shelves at the local shop, I do tend to pick up those with interesting bookcovers. However, more and more often stores will shelve the books spine-out like a library and then the covers become even less important. In that case, the author and then the title become more important. Outside the genre, I don't even look at the covers, in fact I try not to. They are so horrible these days. I don't know what it is but they try to get so poetic with them that they just turn me off. So for those I rely more heavily upon my 'select few' reviewers.

Otherwise I rely upon the strength of my like for an author's previous works, the recommendations of friends (in forums like these) and a select few reviewers who give detailed information instead of just saying things like 'not good', 'best yet' etc.

If I'm just browsing online, the bookcover isn't terribly important but I do note it. Generally the actual 'blurb' from the publisher is what will either intrigue me or turn me off. If I'm intrigued, I really like the amazon feature 'look inside the book'. I've been pulled in a number of times by this, publishers must love it!

Again, a fascinating insight - thanks Dwndrgn. I've always been of the opinion that personal recommendation is the most powerful marketing tool, but as an author, it becomes a challenge to gain enough readers that the power of recommendation can reach a critical mass. Once this is reached the author's popularity appears to become self-sustaining.

The amazon 'look inside the book' feature is causing a certain amount of outrage/fear amongst the UK author fraternity. The Society of Authors' magazine had a huge article about it this quarter. I'll have to re-read it to get the sense of what they're worried about, but whoever wrote the article was very concerned about the percentage of the book that amazon were offering the buyers the chance to read. Personally, I think that amazon are very clever and are utilising their sales power to create innovations that get results. As a writer of fiction, the samples don't fill me with a sense of dread - they make sense. However, I can fully understand how a poet, or an author of specialist non-fiction would be a lot more wary.

I find it interesting that you claim not to look at the covers. Can you honestly tell me that if a book had a beautiful depiction of a dragon on the front, it would not incite more interest than one one with a picture of a fantasy scene, or a portrait of a warrior?

Finally, to get back on topic ... I think! I think you would like The Deed of Paksenarrion. The three books in sequence are:

Sheepfarmer's Daughter
Divided Allegiance
Oath of Gold

 

[dwndrgn]

I find it interesting that you claim not to look at the covers. Can you honestly tell me that if a book had a beautiful depiction of a dragon on the front, it would not incite more interest than one one with a picture of a fantasy scene, or a portrait of a warrior?

Finally, to get back on topic ... I think! I think you would like The Deed of Paksenarrion. The three books in sequence are:

Sheepfarmer's Daughter
Divided Allegiance
Oath of Gold

Thanks for the titles, I did find the first available on the dreaded ebay and the third in my library but goodness knows how I'll find #2

As far as bookcovers go, absolutely a gorgeous dragon on the front is more appealing to me than some generic Conan-like muscled warrior on his steed with sword raised on high (just saw one of these ) but as I was saying that I do a great deal of my 'shopping' and browsing these days online so it is only about half of the time that I actually see the cover in enough detail, or big enough to see it well. Also, as I said, bookshops squeeze as much as possible in the smallest amount of space which makes them display books spine-out so all you see is the titles. Sure, if I pick up a title - I'll then look at the cover, but it is rarely the first thing I see these days.

 

[Brian G Turner]

How important is the title of a book to you as a reader?

I guess I'd expect the title to be a statement of sorts, alluding/hinting/drawing the reader into wanting to explore more.

I mean, really, "Sheepfarmer's Daughter" is such a bland and uninteresting title that it hardly encourages further attention on that feature alone.

Certainly there's more to a book than a title, but with a name like "Sheepfarmer's Daughter" I'm already thinking 'Heidi' or 'Mills & Boon'.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

"Sheepfarmer's Daughter" immediately suggested Joan of Arc to me -- though that may have been influenced by cover art, etc.

As I understand it, Elizabeth Moon "researched" military training and mentality by serving in the US Marine Corps for several years, and by marrying a fellow marine.

It sort of surprises me that her books aren't well known here, because in other communities I've heard her name come up a lot over the years. (Which is why I even know the above, without actually being a fan of her books myself.)

 

[Brian G Turner]

Certainly heard of the name - I'm sure I've seen her listed as one of the names to read.

 

[Azzriel]

There was discussion earlier in the thread about how a book choice is made.
Not always, but often, I take a look on Amazon to see what other books have been bought by those enquiring after the book. It's pretty fair to say that the list of authors displayed can help to make my mind up...... or otherwise A good way to find new authors too.

 

[GOLLUM]

Thanks, Gollum, that's really most useful. I'm guessing that others are influenced differently by title, cover, reviews and possibly price.

Given a choice between two books that look interesting, are similar in length and have both been written by authors you have not read before, what factors would influence you in making a choice of whether to buy one above the other? Or, if you decide to buy both, then how would you decide which you would read first?

WOW this is turning into a 1,001 questions....

OK the only other influecne for me as far as a book goes is the price. Price is not inhibitvie for me but I do tend to wait for a book to come out in PB if it's only intially available in HB. Always good to save a few dollars...

When I get books I like from diffreent authors I'll generally tend to read the book that is later in that specifc series first. In other words, if I get Book 2 of a 3 book series and Book 1 of a 4 book series, I'll read the book in the 3 book series first and stagger my time with other books where possible so that sometimes I'll only read that Book 1 of the 4 book series when say Book 2 is due to be released so that I don't have to wait as long to feel as if I'm making some progreess with that series.... So basically I'll often buy Books 1,2 of a series and not read Book 1 until say the last book (trilogy) comes out even if it's 2 years later or whatever. Patience is a virtue....

Hope this makes some sense...

 

[littlemissattitude]

These are some very interesting quesitons, Mark. As you saw over on the what-are-you-reading thread for July, I picked up a book at the library the other day entirely based on its title - "Mesozoic Murder". My comment on that thread was, how could I possibly resist a book with the word "mesozoic" in it. That, of course reflects my love of geology and, of course, of dinosaurs. There's a silly aside about that, but this probably isn't the place for it, so I'll save it for later.

Anyway, that illustrates that a title can be very important for me in book selection, especially when scanning the shelves in the library for something to read. And I would say that a particularly intriguing title will encourage me to pick up a book. However, I'm not necessarily put off by a title that is strange in some way - weak or unattractive, as you put it. And I think that it is probably good to not put too much reliance on having a "punchy" title, as people are very different in what they perceive as intriguing or as unattractive. I imagine that I'm one of the few people who would pick up a book just because it has a division of geological time in its title.

I don't know that cover art really has much to do with my selection of books. I'll look at it, of course, and maybe make a smart remark if the art is truly strange. But I'm a writer, not a graphic artist, and for me the words are the important things. Now, having said that, the blurb on the flyleaf, or on the back of a paperback, can be very influential when I'm deciding which books to purchase or to check out of the library. If you can convince me in a short paragraph or two that there is an interesting story in a book, I'm there. But if the blurb is dull or nearly nonexistent, I'll probably be slower to choose that book. I want to know, going in, at least a little bit about what story the book is going to tell me.

Now, once I've read an author and liked his or her work, just try to stop me from hunting down all their other work. I've been known to go on binges. When I discovered John D. MacDonald's Travis McGee novels (mystery/detective genre, for those who don't know), I didn't stop until I'd hunted down all of them and read them. For about two weeks (because I wasn't working or in school at the time), I did pretty much nothing but read those books. I might have missed a couple, but that was the library's fault, not mine. It was the same thing when I discovered Kage Baker's work. I picked up the first in her Company series at the library on the strength of the title. "In the Garden of Iden" was close enough to "garden of Eden" for me to want to know where this book was going to go. Then I read the flyleaf and found that it seemed to be a combination of time-travel themed science fiction (something I love) and your basic bodice ripper. Very interesting combination, I thought. Extra bonus - it took place in Tudor England. Well, I loved that book, and it was me off to the library to find the rest of the series.

As far as your last question, Mark, how would I choose between two interesting books in a bookstore - I think you've invented a new and exquisite form of torture. Seriously, I've had this happen before. If I have the money, I just buy both books. If I don't, I probably won't purchase either of them. I'm weird that way. It's like if there are two programs on television at the same time, both of which I want to watch. I'll usually end up not watching either of them because I'm so irritated that I can't watch both. Maybe its because I have a tough time making up my mind sometimes. Now, if I bought them both, I'd probably dip into both of them at first to see which one caught my attention the most, then read that one first. That's what I usually do with library books, when I bring more than one home at a time (which is usually). I find, too, that which book I read first is often a function of what kind of a mood I'm in when I sit down to start reading a new book.

Well, that turned into kind of a book of it's own, didn't it? Sorry. I hope some of that answered some of your questions.

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

Titles do mean a lot to me. Anything with 'sword' 'dragon' 'knight' 'king' and so on in the title automatically makes me skeptical. Unless it's by Fritz Leiber or Michael Moorcock.


Cover art is pretty important in that a generic looking cover can make me avodi looking twice at the book in the shelf. If the art looks like something done by Darrell Sweet, I tend to ignore the book. Similarly, I have a blind spot for cliched hyper-real spaceship-against-stars covers of the sort Tor saddles a lot of its SF titles with, unless I see the name of an author I already like on the cover, such as Poul Anderson or Ken MacLeod.


In fact, the more unusual a title is, and the more original the cover art, the more interested I am. Browsing in a store is a sensory experience as much as anything, and I'd obviously tend to favour books that appeal to my aesthetic sense.

However, the blurbs, and reviews I've read outweigh ttitles and covers.

Given a choice between two books that look interesting, are similar in length and have both been written by authors you have not read before, what factors would influence you in making a choice of whether to buy one above the other? Or, if you decide to buy both, then how would you decide which you would read first?

If I can't afford both, and all other things being equal, the one that seemed most different from what I've read before, but in a direction I like (as in, not more romantic and soppy, but more weird and funny, for instance) would be my choice.

 

[Mark Robson]

Good grief! A whole mine of information overnight. Thanks everyone.

Also, as I said, bookshops squeeze as much as possible in the smallest amount of space which makes them display books spine-out so all you see is the titles. Sure, if I pick up a title - I'll then look at the cover, but it is rarely the first thing I see these days.

Dwndrgn, how right you are! The spines of books are nearly as important now as the covers themselves. I spent a lot of time on my recently remodelled covers making sure that the spines would look attractive and slightly unusual.

I guess I'd expect the title to be a statement of sorts, alluding/hinting/drawing the reader into wanting to explore more.

I mean, really, "Sheepfarmer's Daughter" is such a bland and uninteresting title that it hardly encourages further attention on that feature alone.

Certainly there's more to a book than a title, but with a name like "Sheepfarmer's Daughter" I'm already thinking 'Heidi' or 'Mills & Boon'.

You echo my own thoughts with the title of this book, Brian, but I thought that "Divided Allegiance" was better. As Kelpie pointed out, though, in combination with a strong cover image, the title could give a very different statement. The fact that this particular Sheepfarmer's Daughter becomes a mercenary in the first chapter and has the most amazing string of action and supernatural experiences isn't captured by the title. So what sort of title might have captured your imagination in this case?

As I understand it, Elizabeth Moon "researched" military training and mentality by serving in the US Marine Corps for several years, and by marrying a fellow marine.

It sort of surprises me that her books aren't well known here, because in other communities I've heard her name come up a lot over the years.

Kelpie, you are a virtual mine of information. I bet you're popular with pub quiz teams! I had no idea that Elizabeth had this sort of background, but it does put a lot of her writing into perspective. Thanks for this gem.

WOW this is turning into a 1,001 questions....

Yes, Gollum, but I hope they're more interesting than 'What's your favourite book'! I have often heard that price is rarely a factor when someone is choosing a book. You are either rare, or have just disproved the theory! However, I'm with you on waiting for paperback rather than buying the hardback ... most of the time. There have been occasional authors that have grabbed me enough that I've not been able to wait for the paperback.

Your point about waiting for the entire series, or at least a substantial part of it, to be released is an interesting one as well. I don't know about others, but I will buy the first, read it, then re-read it just before the next one comes out. I will often then re-read the first two before the third comes out. Am I the odd one out here?

I picked up a book at the library the other day entirely based on its title - "Mesozoic Murder" ... That, of course reflects my love of geology and, of course, of dinosaurs.

Littlemiss, this was exactly the point I was trying to discern. Finding something in a title that will catch a particular interest and guarantee a certain type of person will be intrigued enough to try a book must be important. Knivesout made a good point when he said he avoids books with titles that include certain keywords - surely an author would do well to learn which keywords will inspire more interest than revulsion. I chose my next set of titles with extreme care. Imperial Spy, Imperial Assassin and Imperial Traitor were chosen to give a certain mental image regardless of the cover art (over which I have little control). My point in the case of Elizabeth's series was - what image was she trying to give when she came up with the title "Sheepfarmer's Daughter"? Also, what were the publishers thinking of by allowing it? Surely they would have enough market knowledge to know that this would not catch the imaginations of the majority of fantasy readers?

Now, once I've read an author and liked his or her work, just try to stop me from hunting down all their other work. I've been known to go on binges.

Music to my ears, Littlemiss, music to my ears!

Cover art is pretty important in that a generic looking cover can make me avoid looking twice at the book in the shelf ...

In fact, the more unusual a title is, and the more original the cover art, the more interested I am. Browsing in a store is a sensory experience as much as anything, and I'd obviously tend to favour books that appeal to my aesthetic sense.

However, the blurbs, and reviews I've read outweigh ttitles and covers.

Knivesout - interesting. I'd be intrigued to know if you felt you were a typical sf/fantasy shopper. I'm guessing I'd know the answer to that, but then I've read a lot of your posts. Would you say that the more generic titles/covers give the readers an easy choice of which to buy and which to avoid given the authors and styles that are currently in vogue?

And finally

As far as your last question, Mark, how would I choose between two interesting books in a bookstore - I think you've invented a new and exquisite form of torture.

I can't lay claim to having invented this form of torture, LMA, but I've suffered it on many occasion!

 

[Mark Robson]

There was discussion earlier in the thread about how a book choice is made.
Not always, but often, I take a look on Amazon to see what other books have been bought by those enquiring after the book. It's pretty fair to say that the list of authors displayed can help to make my mind up...... or otherwise A good way to find new authors too.

Sorry, Azzriel, I missed this as I was creating my monster post above. I'm pleased to see that someone else uses this function on amazon. I've discovered a few interesting authors this way. However, you need to be a little careful. For instance, I discovered that there is another Mark Robson aside from me. The other Mark writes history text books. Hence, for a while, the list below my name led to authors of Italian history text books, which probably wouldn't interest your average fantasy reader!

 

[Azzriel]

Well there you go...I've never seen/heard of your books before...and I've been reading fantasy for a long time....makes me wonder why....?
FWIW - If I like an author I will buy anything and everything. I've also just paid £35 for a book by a guy who's never published before... and it was worth every penny.. but it's the exception to the rule... and probably marks me out as slightly insane....

 

[Mark Robson]

Well there you go...I've never seen/heard of your books before...and I've been reading fantasy for a long time....makes me wonder why....?
FWIW - If I like an author I will buy anything and everything. I've also just paid £35 for a book by a guy who's never published before... and it was worth every penny.. but it's the exception to the rule... and probably marks me out as slightly insane....

Depends where you're from, Azzriel. Unless you're from the south of England then I'd be surprised if you had heard of me before. However, I hope to up my profile a bit over the next 12 months. Check out the author's board under my name if you want to know more.

 

[dwndrgn]

So what sort of title might have captured your imagination in this case?

Anything other than 'Sheepfarmer's Daughter', heck they could have gone with 'Mercenary Escape' which in itself is rather boring but much more descriptive of the story and evocative to the reader.

Your point about waiting for the entire series, or at least a substantial part of it, to be released is an interesting one as well. I don't know about others, but I will buy the first, read it, then re-read it just before the next one comes out. I will often then re-read the first two before the third comes out. Am I the odd one out here?

Call me impatient but I never wait until the entire series is out - unless it is an older one I've just discovered and it is already complete. I reread the previous books all the time, especially before the next book or perhaps the movie (in the case of HP) just to keep up on the story. The only series with which I did not do this is Jordan's WoT series since he goes to great trouble to rehash everything at the beginning of each book.

I'm glad to hear you've made your spines especially pretty (now you sound like a cactus ), just shows that you are forward thinking when it comes to marketing your work. I'm guessing that self-publishing has done this to you - you've been forced to think about all aspects of self-promotion in order to get your stuff noticed. Which reminds me, I just read about another self-publishing success story. The author wrote a book and after several big pub. house rejections, published it himself, sold over 1000 copies and caught the eye of Warner books. Now his book is being published by them and he has a deal for others. Reminded me of you .