Interesting thought experiment on impact on global weather of vast numbers of solar panels

[Montero]

Gigantic solar farms of the future might impact how much solar power can be generated on the other side of the world

Solar farms that span whole countries could change the climate – new study.

theconversation.com

Another reason to do detailed planning, and do it globally, not locally.

 

[Brian G Turner]

It does point out the limitations of the study, but it's inevitable that the renewable energy sources we are bringing online today will be the villains of tomorrow as more and more efficient and generally planet-friendly methods of energy generation are found. Renewables are the best alternatives to coil and oil - but one day we will have better alternatives.

 

[Montero]

It does point out the limitations of the study, but it's inevitable that the renewable energy sources we are bringing online today will be the villains of tomorrow as more and more efficient and generally planet-friendly methods of energy generation are found. Renewables are the best alternatives to coil and oil - but one day we will have better alternatives.

That being said, taking account of the downside, and mitigating it as far as possible, does seem sensible - such as concentrating solar panels on house roofs, as canopies over car parks, and in hotter part of the world, shielding over canals, before going for blanket coverage of miles of the Sahara. Also monitoring what happens next - are there actual local climate changes resulting from large installations?

 

[farntfar]

It would appear that building these vast sun farms locally tends to have an effect elsewhere.
Can we expect a solar-panel race, to mimic the nuclear arms race with all of the western bloc trying to build solar farms, not only to generate power, but also to screw up the weather systems of the east, and similar investment by Russia and China to attack western climates?

Possibly a further encouragement to world powers to move away from fossil fuels.

 

[Montero]

It would appear that building these vast sun farms locally tends to have an effect elsewhere.
Can we expect a solar-panel race, to mimic the nuclear arms race with all of the western bloc trying to build solar farms, not only to generate power, but also to screw up the weather systems of the east, and similar investment by Russia and China to attack western climates?

Possibly a further encouragement to world powers to move away from fossil fuels.

As in fossil fuels mess up the weather of the world, solar panels do it up close and local?

 

[Robert Zwilling]

Its an example of terraforming. We prefer not to think we can change the way the Earth works. As more thought experiments are performed on what might be, eventually we will probably arrive at the conclusion that we have already done so.

 

[Swank]

Who sponsored the study? BP? The same company that created the 'carbon footprint' campaign to make people feel personally responsible for global warming?

 

[Cthulhu.Science]

The article is kinda silly.

If we were ever to build truly giant solar farms, spanning whole countries and continents, they may have a similar impact. In our recent study, we used a computer program to model the Earth system and simulate how hypothetical enormous solar farms covering 20% of the Sahara would affect solar power generation around the world.

And the solution, apparently, is don't build solar farms on natural terrain the size of countries or continents.

As we sit here today, with current solar technology, simply putting panels over currently built environment -- rooftops, parking lots and paved roads -- will provide many multiples of the energy the Earth is projected to require into the next century and beyond.

Cities already provide a local heat effect. Solar panels, by design reflect less solar energy back into the atmosphere than high-efficient roofs that are installed on most large industrial and commercial buildings.

For example this building, the tiny portion covered with panels affects the local environment less than the rest of the white roof -- by design those panels absorb some of the energy while the rest of the roof is designed to reflect it. So. Completely covering THAT roof and every roof like it in solar panels will help reverse the effects of buildings on local / world climate.

 

[Montero]

The thing is, at least regarding solar farms in the UK, they are/were being built over green field sites, rather than buildings and car parks as greenfields are much easier to handle in terms of construction. Also popular as an additional income stream for farmers hence fields. I've seen some where a green south facing hillside has turned into a grey one - that is changing things. I'm all for renewables - done in places that cause the fewest problems. Hence I was pleased to see someone prepared to consider the impact of renewables on the natural environment, as that is not currently considered by many developers, either for a field sized installation, or the cumulative effect of lots of field sized installations done individually in neighbouring or nearby fields.
Putting them on a grey slate roof, or a flat white one, is far less of a change to the environment, than covering over green fields. The next thing is to persuade house builders to build all houses with at least one roof face with a south facing section - not a given when they like to build them in twisty crescents and avenues and go for that faux village vibe.

 

[CupofJoe]

There is a local solar power farm fairly near me. It covers a few acres that used to be a Hop field.
For a few years there were chickens roaming around the ground underneath the panels.
I thought it a great mixed use for the land.
Then the chickens were gone.
The local rumour/myth was that the chickens pooped on or peck at the panels so much it was making them uneconomic to run.

 

[Montero]

Well some of the very first solar panels installed, 1980s ish, somewhere in California I think, all went well for a while and then the output began to drop. Maintenance went for a look and found streaks of bird poo were the problem. Not sure if self-cleaning glass had been invented then, and whether it works well without much rain anyway.
Chickens do wreck things - we keep chickens and the way they scratch and peck is pretty impressive.
Geese are worse; geese can gnaw through electric cabling - a neighbour also had geese and all the lights on his trailer stopped working because his geese had cut the cables.
Cows and horses can bend metal gates and shake electricity poles when scratching their rear ends, so you wouldn't want them in with solar panels, unless the panel was well above rear end height. I do see sheep in with them occasionally, but even sheep can wear away at road traffic sign poles when using them as a scratching post.
The down side of solar panels in green fields, is they are taking sunlight from the grass, which then will have less sugar in it and be less nutritious. I've been told that in conditions where there is too much sun, shading the grass a bit can help it grow, but that probably doesn't apply in the UK.....

 

[Robert Zwilling]

The article is about unintended consequences and consequences of actions when things are done to fill the needs of 8 billion people, something that is rarely mentioned in any circumstances.

It is a rehash of a previous article written in 2021 with a few additional points. "anything on that scale is unlikely to happen in the near future. If the covered area is reduced to a more plausible (though still unlikely) 5% of the Sahara, the global effects become mostly negligible."

I would say its a legitimate article. The author's research is looking at how the climate interacts with what's happening on the Earth. This involves observations of what is happening and supposition of what can happen. Lots of thought experiments needed to fill in numerous gaps.

If the article had been paid for, it would probably be by the nuclear industry, they are in a very precarious position in the western world compared to the hydrocarbon industry. The oil industry has recently gone on the offensive because they know oil, gas, coal, and plastic will be heavily used for at least the next 10 or 20 years. The nuclear industry is pushing the idea that they are a green alternative source of power but no big investments are being made in the western world. Asia on the other hand is currently on track to build around a hundred reactors. This will replace the number of reactors being retired around the world. If nothing happens, the only drawback is disposal of the nuclear waste. While the plant is running the waste will probably be left on the premises. After that its anybody's guess as to where it goes.

Shading the ground can be accomplished using a checkerboard system which would be similar to having clusters of trees shading part of the land while leaving other spaces open. This produces a varying degree of shading and sunlight on the land. While that is a good way to partially shade land, the solar panel industry would probably take a dim view of laying out panels in such a diluted fashion.

Putting solar panels on every surface facing the sun would be very practical and generate a great deal of power. The only drawback is how to store the power cheaply. Besides using batteries there is no other practical way to easily store unused power in a wide variety of situations. A suitable battery setup can double the cost of the solar panel setup, which makes batteries an add on feature instead part of the original setup.

Houses used to be built aligned to the sun to take advantage of natural solar heating. The idea was abandoned as being unneeded and old fashioned. We thought we had access to cheap unlimited power to fix any situation. Yet here we are needing to align buildings to take advantage of solar energy again. Doing this would dilute the density of housing units which the land developers would probably also take a dim view of.

 

[CupofJoe]

Putting solar panels on every surface facing the sun would be very practical and generate a great deal of power. The only drawback is how to store the power cheaply. Besides using batteries there is no other practical way to easily store unused power in a wide variety of situations. A suitable battery setup can double the cost of the solar panel setup, which makes batteries an add on feature instead part of the original setup.

There was talk of Sodium[?] Batteries.
The Solar panels would superheat the sodium when the conditions allowed.
This was stored in thermally insulated sites [salt mines were mentioned].
Then when the electricity was needed the super hot sodium would be used to generate steam to power turbines.
And then there is this...

Reflectors in space could make solar farms on Earth work for longer every day

Proposed reflectors would help provide clean energy when demand peaks near dawn and dusk.

theconversation.com

 

[Montero]

I was just reading the solar reflectors article which is an interesting idea. Good to see they are making comment on localising the impact, as I had concerns regarding ecological impact. It does however rely on big area solar farms to be viable - putting down a circle of overcast day level of sunlight in a set area. Which potentially brings us back to the problems of big areas of solar panels.