Hugo Vs. Nebula: Which One Has More Value for You?

Extollager

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I should say -- I'm so out of the current state of science fiction that I don't know if these are the two big awards any more. There seem to be new ones popping up all the time.

Assuming they are still the two biggest awards, my question is: which one has more value or credibility or appeal, however you put it, for you? I'm thinking with regard to the whole run of their respective existences, not just in terms of the past few years.

I don't really have a dog in the fight, but I'd vote for the Hugo. It would reflect the taste of a lot of fans who enjoyed the magazines, Ace releases, etc., while I take it the Nebula would be more influenced by people with agendas for the craft of writing sf including a lot of experimental writing that wouldn't appeal to me.

Feel free to say why you chose the one you chose.
 
In past years, there was a lot of overlap between the two awards, so the taste of the fans and of the pros wasn't that different. In very recent years, it's been shown that the Hugo can be very easily manipulated by a determined small group, so that tarnishes it. I don't think the Nebula can be manipulated that easily, so it may be more meaningful in that sense.

As you have noted, there also seem to be a lot more awards other than the Hugo and the Nebula around these days, as well as lots of "best of the year" anthologies. That may dilute the "value" (whatever that may mean) of the older awards.

Let's get specific. I've read every Hugo-winning novel from 1953 to 1981, haven't read those for the next two years (Downbelow Station by C. J. Cherryh and Foundation's Edge by Isaac Asimov), and then read the winners for the next three years. After that, I've only read five of the winners published in the 1990's or the 21st century. Of all those novels, there were only two I did not like. (The rather obscure They'd Rather Be Right by Mark Clifton and Frank Riley, and the much praised Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card.)

I have also read every Nebula-winning novel from 1966 to 1986. Like the Hugos, I have only read five novels later than that. The only one I didn't care for was, again, Ender's Game. (I wouldn't go as far as Norman Spinrad, who I once heard over the radio calling it "an atrocity," but I think it's overrated.)

So, at least up to 1990 or so, I find both pretty reliable. There has been a lot of criticism in recent years about both awards. (More so the Hugo, I think, since anybody who pays a membership fee can vote, while you have to be a member of SFFWA to vote on the Nebulas, which means you have to at least publish something "professionally" somewhere.)
 
To be quite honest, Extollager, they have both become much less meaningful in recent years. The Nebula is probably the one that has more relevance to quality of the two, as the Hugo is now essentially meaningless (in my humble opinion).
 
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REF: Bick.
In an earlier thread which was about the current crop of Hugo contestants not a single one appealed to me, one or two sounded truly dreadful.
So I completely agree with you!
 
I'm a long-time away from fandom and was never than deeply involved, so this discussion raises a question for me:

Bick, BBB141, does the change in the Hugo solely reflect manipulation, or does it reflect a diversifying field?

By "diversifying," I mean first, a broader audience and base of writers (ethnically, racially, culturally) than there was in the past; second, subject matter that once would have been shied away from, that maybe the mainstream (whatever that is) would have approached but not s.f. or that some s.f. readers would see as fantasy.

My understanding is that some of the manipulation of the Hugos stemmed from resistance to the field changing -- as though s.f. had always been this monolith that never changed and here's these darned newcomers chipping and eroding our sacred screed!

Recently read the Binti novellas, for instance, and found them deftly written, well-imagined and coming from a perspective that I wouldn't have expected 20 or 30 years ago. I wouldn't call them revelatory, but they were good reading -- and the final novella was excellent -- with an insight into character and situation that made them compelling. On the other hand, some of the fictional elements could be seen as fantasy and I know that's a floride-in-the-water-like controversy for some s.f. readers.
 
Thanks, everyone so far, for these comments. I hope more people will talk about their perceptions. For newcomers to this thread, the question you're asked to consider is: "which one has more value or credibility or appeal, however you put it, for you? I'm thinking with regard to the whole run of their respective existences, not just in terms of the past few years."
 
Addendum: I meant to include another kind of diversity. I'm wondering if s.f. is like a smaller version of the popular music scene. I have a friend who's a long time musician who wonders what the next big thing will be. There was rock, there was hip hop, but that's getting older now, so what comes next and why has it taken so long to show? My thought was, how would you identify it? The distribution of music is now capable of catering to a massive number of smaller audiences, more so than in the '50s through the '80s, so maybe the next thing is here but not all that visible if you haven't time/energy to look at all the sub-genres. For that matter, will there be a "next big thing"? And for there to be one, would we have to revise our idea of what the scale of it would be in audience numbers and artist enthusiasm for it?

Could this be true of s.f.? (And I'd widen that out to fantasy.) The scale might be smaller, but then the audience is somewhat smaller, too, and trying to take in all that's available is impossible except in random samplings. Therefore, an award like the Hugo may just be reflecting a large chunk of the audience, but not really reflective of the entire audience for s.f.

Not that I expect answers to all these questions, but they are the ideas that popped into my head given that my friend's question has been bugging me since he posed it the last time I saw him a couple of years ago (pre-covid, in other words).
 
There was a time when I was actively avoiding reading books labeled as Hugo Award winners.
Surprisingly though, when I was checking the Hugo's by year I found many Hugo award winning books that I have read.

It seems the greatest value of those awards is that after awarded the sales of those books often see a spike and the authors can advertise on their other books that they are a Hugo Award winning author.

Oddly Nebula Award doesn't seem to catch my eye or my minds eye. But then I'm older than the Hugo Awards are and they probably have a firmer place in my experience.
 
Bick, BBB141, does the change in the Hugo solely reflect manipulation, or does it reflect a diversifying field?

By "diversifying," I mean first, a broader audience and base of writers (ethnically, racially, culturally) than there was in the past; second, subject matter that once would have been shied away from, that maybe the mainstream (whatever that is) would have approached but not s.f. or that some s.f. readers would see as fantasy.

My understanding is that some of the manipulation of the Hugos stemmed from resistance to the field changing -- as though s.f. had always been this monolith that never changed and here's these darned newcomers chipping and eroding our sacred screed!
Thanks for the thoughtful response Randy. I think there are several things going on with the Hugo's and it's quite complex what has happened, but I'm not sure they have lost value for me as a result of diversification. They might have for some, I suppose, and I can only speak for myself. It's probably worth saying at the outset that the only criteria I consider important when considering Hugo's and Nebula's is quality. I'm perfectly happy to see diversity in the subject matter, and couldn't give two hoots what an author's background is, so long as the quality is there.

Change has always occurred in SF, but this has not previously had overt and unreasonable influence (I believe) on the awards circuit. The New Wave came along, and did indeed reward a new swathe of 'New Wavers', but old guard authors from the golden age still won awards if and when their work was good enough. The same could be said for other era changes in SF, some of which I've liked and some I haven't. I guess what I'm saying here is that, yes, you're quite right, there has been a broadening of the fan base, the author base, and the story content, following an increase in the acceptance and celebration of diverse groups (including the new - and welcome - inclusiveness of LGBTQ+ authors and fans). I would expect this ought to mean that the short lists and winners for major awards now would now include the best works that represent this new diversity - works that should still be of Hugo and Nebula quality.

This is not the reality though, in my opinion. The new diverse fanbase and author base does not simply contribute to the landscape of the major awards, it has supplanted the old, almost completely. I read all the story, novelette and novella nominees for the Hugo last year. They did not represent a cross section of SFdom, as they were almost entirely from LGBTQ+ and other minority authors, which would be fine except that, importantly, they were simply not that good. They did not, in the main, deserve Hugo recognition. I don't pretend to be a writer of course, but I like to think I'm probably quite a good reader. I have a decent ear for words (as Nancy Kress would say), and I'm reasonably confident I can judge whether stories have especial merit or not. Much of the written work springing from the 'new diversity' (and I read an awful lot of it in reviewing for Tangent) is simply not very good. It makes no sense to me to push for diversity of the one hand, and then, come awards season, completely ignore all the most popular SF authors, and the traditional print magazines, and only reward works from what is a non-diverse set. I can only presume the most popular, older, authors are being ignored because they don't meet the Zeitgeist. Ironically, this is of course counter to celebrating diversity.

Which might make you think I'm claiming gross manipulation, but I wouldn't necessarily go that far - I think that the new, diverse, fanbase is active, interested, has found a voice and wants to celebrate its literature. That leads to lots of award nominations of a certain kind of story. The end result, however, are Hugo awards that are highly skewed, and because they are skewed, the Hugo is of little value for me now - quality is no longer guaranteed, thus my initial answer on this thread. The Nebula's of course are not voted for by the fanbase, but by SFWA authors. This leads to an award that still has a little more value to me as an indicator of quality (hence my answer to Extollager), but if you take a look at the current board of SFWA, you'll see a large number of folk who are, let's say, 'highly sympathetic' to the new fanbase, and I suspect there is some 'manipulation' or at least bias, here.

Could this be true of s.f.? (And I'd widen that out to fantasy.) The scale might be smaller, but then the audience is somewhat smaller, too, and trying to take in all that's available is impossible except in random samplings. Therefore, an award like the Hugo may just be reflecting a large chunk of the audience, but not really reflective of the entire audience for s.f.
Indeed, a good point, and for the large swathes of online fans who are reading and enjoying the literary freedom of this 'new diversity', which they can now find in many of the more liberal magazines (Strange Horizon's, Tor, Lightspeed, Uncanny, etc.), the Hugo's are perhaps a better yardstick for what they enjoy. I would argue they are being pointed toward stories that are simply not very good, and that they might be better rewarded by widening their focus, but that's not my concern, especially.

However, for me, as a more 'general reader' who wants to read well written, insightful SF, the Hugo's being a yardstick for LGBT/diverse literature with little concern for quality, doesn't help me much. My view only reflects what I would like awards to represent, of course. Others may want them to do something else.

Anyway, we have to make our own minds up whether to pay much attention to awards, and for these reasons, I now don't.

Incidentally, I recently posted a list of the 10 best SF stories I've read this year (from hundreds read and reviewed) on my website. It will be interesting to see if any of these crop up in short lists for the major awards or not. (For those who may harbour thoughts that I'm on some sort of crusade on behalf of old men, please note that many of the stories I recommend are by young women.)
 
I think that both Hugo and Nebula had significance, but my use of the past tense is deliberate. I would not trust either nowadays any more than I trust thevarious contemporaneous non-sf 'awards' in other forms of literature. They may have advertising value for their publishers but more important is the review by knowledgeable individual reviewers whose opinion I already trust. But then the question becomes, who do I trust? Let's not go into that.
 
And thanks for your thoughtful response, Bick.

I'm inclined to think "this too shall pass" in the sense that there are times where a great enthusiasm for [X] pushes mass opinion in a certain direction. A little time and responses moderate, moving back in line with past responses. Not unchanged, but striking more of a balance -- again using the New Wave, that seems to be what happened. Maybe right now isn't the time to gauge the worth of the awards, but in a divisive time with passionate dis/likes, we are probably going to see some skewing of selections and votes. Who knows what happens in the next couple of years?

I will say that of the nominees for Nebula best novel, I intend to read Piranesi, and have read Mexican Gothic. I thought MG very good and was pleased to see it considered.
 
[...]the only criteria I consider important when considering Hugo's and Nebula's is quality. I'm perfectly happy to see diversity in the subject matter, and couldn't give two hoots what an author's background is, so long as the quality is there.

Change has always occurred in SF, but this has not previously had overt and unreasonable influence (I believe) on the awards circuit. The New Wave came along, and did indeed reward a new swathe of 'New Wavers', but old guard authors from the golden age still won awards if and when their work was good enough.[...] The [new fanbase] does not simply contribute to the landscape of the major awards, it has supplanted the old, almost completely.[...]It makes no sense to me to push for diversity of the one hand, and then, come awards season, completely ignore all the most popular SF authors, and the traditional print magazines, and only reward works from what is a non-diverse set. [...]Ironically, this is of course counter to celebrating diversity.[...]

However, for me, as a more 'general reader' who wants to read well written, insightful SF, the Hugo's being a yardstick for LGBT/diverse literature with little concern for quality, doesn't help me much.
Almost the whole post, of course, but especially the above. The one part where I veer off is that I don't see any advantage in the Nebulas, either, anymore. Also, from 1965 (when the Nebulas started) through the 1980s or maybe early 1990s, the Nebulas would sometimes do something excellent the Hugos didn't but I generally appreciated the Hugos more. The Nebulas sometimes reflected a more "in-group" and "art for art's sake" attitude with some of their selections, especially for short story (vs. novelette and up).

To be fair to the Hugos and Nebulas, you mention the newer magazines but that's basically all of them and even the older print zines are morphing to match them so the whole field has basically become a subgenre of LGBQT fiction, at least at the short fiction range. This is part of why I quit reading and reviewing it. Several of my favorite stories had such themes (or now-related race issues, etc.) and/or were written by such authors, but there seemed to be so much (and so much was so bad and some didn't even bother to include significant speculative elements) that it became tiresome. Not to mention how off-putting the pugnacious, disrespectful, and frankly ignorant attitudes of many of the current fans, especially to many of my beloved SF figures and works. Not to mention the distortions of history. Genre SF, which did start with teen boys in the 1920s and 1930s, did produce many childish and unwelcoming letters in the magazines regarding women which had the same level of social significance as children wanting to avoid "cooties," but this is now taken to represent some evil systemic sexism when women had always been published and there were no "gatekeepers" excluding them or any bars to their success. At the least, a woman could use a pseudonym and a non-white person had no bar at all. When people like Le Guin used their own names or people like Delany were known to be non-white (and gay), they were showered with awards (both Hugos and Nebulas). Maybe some people did say negative things but the whole field can't be defined by that and certainly such backwards incidents in no way harmed anyone's sales or award recognition. If 9 of 10 authors were male and 9 of 10 award winners were male, then there was no lack of diversity in recognition and the problem was simply one of participation. And if anyone can mail in a manuscript signed "James Tiptree, Jr." then there's nothing limiting participation. Whereas now, if half the authors are female and 15 of 18 awards go to females, there is a lack of diversity.

The point is, that SF was always about many things and used many thematic symbols and you can interpret SF as "cowboys and aliens" if you want but, for me, SF was ALWAYS deeply about inclusion. When Edmond Hamilton, in the 1930s, has green tentacled beings as partners with humans in the Interstellar Patrol and van Vogt, in the 40s, has repressed "different" people be the heroes within a society that misunderstands and mistreats them and Doc Smith has a physically fit and mentally competent female counterpart to his male in Spacehounds of IPC (however dated aspects of it may be which only show the social forces he was swimming against), how does any of this not speak to an inclusive, non-monolithic, liberal, trans-temporal sensibility? And to see the whole field now turning on and attacking itself, ignoring its virtues and magnifying or inventing its faults, really pains me. To see profanely inarticulate and historically ignorant fools slander people who created the very thing that put them on the award stage is just too ironic and pathetic to bear.

"But I digress."

Um. Yeah. So... anyway... I used to value the Hugos slightly more and now value neither.

Incidentally, I recently posted a list of the 10 best SF stories I've read this year (from hundreds read and reviewed) on my website. It will be interesting to see if any of these crop up in short lists for the major awards or not. (For those who may harbour thoughts that I'm on some sort of crusade on behalf of old men, please note that many of the stories I recommend are by young women.)
I'd like to see that list, but the link takes me to the homepage, I guess, and I didn't see it there. Can you point me to it directly?

Oops, never mind. I found it... on the homepage.
 
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We agree pretty much completely, J-Sun. I was so disgusted that a vile tirade against Campbell won a Hugo and that a rude and obnoxious tirade against GRRM was nominated for a Hugo, that the Hugo's (and Natalie Luhrs) can &%$# off themselves as far as I'm concerned now. I'll probably read the nominated stories, but don't hold out much hope they will be any good.
 
I myself feel no duty to read sf except because I want to -- i.e. no obligation to "keep up with the field." Some people may have that obligation, but I don't, while there is much earlier sf, also a very great deal of non-sf, that I really want to read, or reread. This discussion has been interesting so far.
 

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