Post-Mortem question

Boneman

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Sorry, if this is the wrong place - I do recall someone (Bent?) saying they'd answer these sort of questions, but damned if I can find the thread. Mods, please feel free to move it to the correct place!

If someone jumps ship, tries to swim to shore, but eventually drowns swimming against the tide, exhausted, would an overload of lactic acid show up in the muscles? Would a forensic pathologist see this as a matter of course in an autopsy?

Many thanks.
 
My understanding is a pathologist, in those circumstances, would complete a toxicology report (For presence of drugs - which is the norm for suicide, which is something they'd consider).

My only source I have to hand re PMs is that - 'Each body organ is carefully checked and samples of fluids taken.'

I remember hearing somewhere that lactic acid production continues long after death. I cannot source that though, so more posing it as a question maybe you should ask someone more knowledgeable than I.
 
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Thanks all. I guess if I make it so the general public believe it, (the reader) it will only be the forensic pathologists who fall about laughing if I get it horribly wrong... I guess if you're going to commit suicide you won't struggle, so no lactic overload, but if you're trying to live, you'll swim until exhausted, and hence lactic acid overload. Sounds about right?
 
you'll swim until exhausted,
Probably succumb to cold or exhustion or both, pass out and drown.
Endurance swimming (which I have done in a pool) isn't at all the same as a swimming race (which I have also done in pool), being I also grew up with sailing and sometimes people drowned, I never ever remember hearing more than "he drowned". If the weather was good and an old or depressed guy sailing single handed and boat was found intact there would be quiet speculation.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm sceptical anyone can tell if a drowning was "suicide" or "attempting to reach shore". I never heard of it and only heard of lactic acid (and pain) being associated with more vigorous stuff like running.

if you're going to commit suicide
maybe you swim till you are exhausted? That's what I would imagine, but I've not tried it.
 
Probably succumb to cold or exhustion or both, pass out and drown.
Endurance swimming (which I have done in a pool) isn't at all the same as a swimming race (which I have also done in pool), being I also grew up with sailing and sometimes people drowned, I never ever remember hearing more than "he drowned". If the weather was good and an old or depressed guy sailing single handed and boat was found intact there would be quiet speculation.

*I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm sceptical anyone can tell if a drowning was "suicide" or "attempting to reach shore". I never heard of it and only heard of lactic acid (and pain) being associated with more vigorous stuff like running.


maybe you swim till you are exhausted? That's what I would imagine, but I've not tried it.

*You could well be right. That's my problem, and I'm probably worrying unduly. But (in my story) if it was a suicide, she'd have filled her pockets with stones from the beach, rather than swimming until exhausted.
 
But (in my story) if it was a suicide, she'd have filled her pockets with stones from the beach,
Maybe not.
People are not very logical about it.
I know a guy that tried to commit suicide. He's not stupid. He jumped.
He forgot to
a) check tide
b) look
He was taken to hospital with both legs broken after landing in the mud etc. He was serious about it at the time.
Nor have I heard of people tying on the anchor.

I suspect people have a background idea that they can change their mind or be rescued. I think if you find body with rocks in pockets or tied to an anchor you suspect murder, not suicide?
 
Ray, Did he turn his life around after that? ie the universe was telling him to stop being so silly?

In essence my dead girl jumps off a boat to escape, thinks she can swim to shore, but drowns. Naturally, body washed up on shore, nobody knows who the hell she is, and they need to establish if it's suicide or drowning by misadventure. That's why I was hoping the lactic acid thing would prove (even though she might have swum from shore until exhausted, dammit! More work for my detective...)

Edit: Ooh, thanks Alc! Ray, apparently you drown before you die of cold, unless you have a lifejacket on. The cold saps you, and then you inhale the water...
 
If the North Sea, you may die in minutes of cold.
About 4 minutes in winter. I was a Sea Scout.
Water temperature (very cold is quite different) may be important.
And not just because of hypothermia. The cold water causes you to gasp for air. This happened to the guy who jumped off Tower Bridge into the River Thames a couple of weeks ago (middle of summer so water was reasonably warm.) He swallowed and inhaled dirty water and later got a bacterial chest infection.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...ridge-leap-lifeboat-chief-warns-10412676.html
 
but drowns. Naturally, body washed up on shore, nobody knows who the hell she is, and they need to establish if it's suicide or drowning by misadventure
I think that's probably impossible. But I'm not a medic or a pathologist. But just in 50+ years of knowing mad sailors, sailing, swimming, boat clubs and people in the boat club that drowned without a storm* (or other sailors elsewhere) I never heard of such a test. Even if someone's intent is suicide they may do exactly what someone drowning by misadventure does. I'd have thought someone sometime would have mentioned lactic acid test or the wikipedia would have. I'd be sceptical reading such an idea given my experience of level of exertion of swimming compared to running for bus and how quick is body recovered from sea.
It doesn't sound believable, even if it can be done and besides when actually IN the sea the behaviour of person intending suicide and wanting to reach shore could easily be the same.

So maybe you need some other piece of evidence ... not to do with drowning. A wound or bruise on back from being forced overboard?

(*Gybing can be a reason to drown sailing single handed)
 
The cold saps you, and then you inhale the water...
Or fall asleep from exhaustion swimming in warm water ... and drown. I read a story once that seemed to have an infeasible time in water in the Med.
As Dave says, fall into North Sea without a special suit in Winter and you have four minutes. With ORDINARY waves on open sea it's nearly impossible to spot a ball more than about 4m away in when in a dinghy.
 
Ray, Did he turn his life around after that? ie the universe was telling him to stop being so silly?

There was a documentary on the Golden Gate bridge that I remember watching, on the suicides that regularly occur there. It's a bit disturbing as it clearly catches on camera some people jumping off - but taken from a very long distance away (I think the film-maker just trained a camera on the bridge for a year and caught some in the footage).

Anyway they had one case of a survivor who, to cut a long story short, decided to jump and instantly regretted their decision. I think it is this film

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_(2006_documentary_film)

It actually states in the Wikipedia article - In his article for The New Yorker, Friend wrote, "Survivors often regret their decision in midair, if not before," supported by survivor Ken Baldwin explaining, “I instantly realized that everything in my life that I'd thought was unfixable was totally fixable—except for having just jumped."
 
I still have nightmares about the Golden Gate bridge ever since I was told (and I didn't want to find out if it was true or not) that a toddler slipped between the road and the pavement (where there's quite a large gap) and fell to his/her death...
 

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