Which was the greatest ancient empire?

Yeah, exactly.

I'm sorry, Thaddeus, but I hope your comment was more of the "for the hell of it" variety, because if you truly believe in the validity of the British (or any other) Empire in the present world, then that is a ridiculous line of thought.

Flat-out unacceptable.
 
Flat-out unacceptable? No. Self-determination is obviously the best course. But better a peaceful province than an AIDS-ridden, impoverished, famished dictatorship where the average man on the street is a billionaire who caren't afford a good meal.

I'm not saying we should go out and re-establish the Empire. I'm saying that Zimbabwe now is far worse than it would be if it were run properly, whether as a province or a self-determined and well-functioning democracy.
 
Precisely the argument that pro-imperialists have made throughout history.

"These people are too incompetent to take care of themselves, so we better do it for them."

Sounds, on the surface, perfectly reasonable. And therein lies the danger.
 
I'm sorry, Thaddeus, but I hope your comment was more of the "for the hell of it" variety, because if you truly believe in the validity of the British (or any other) Empire in the present world, then that is a ridiculous line of thought.

Flat-out unacceptable.

I think very few points of view are flat out unacceptable. I can see Thaddeus' point, although I should also make it clear that I am not advocating a return to the days of Empire.

In the day, the fashionable belief was that the British Empire was an unreservedly Good Thing because we showed these damnable natives a thing or two about running their own affairs and taught them cricket into the bargain.

Nowadays, the fashionable belief is that the British Empire was an unreservedly Bad Thing as it relied on the vile jackboot of oppression and the stifling of those yearning to be free.

Whether it's tribe or Empire, it's usually about the control of resources. States that become Empires might be particularly good at acquiring those resources, but if moral opposition to Empire is based on notions of self determination and the sanctity of each tribe/nation/people to govern their own affairs, can anyone explain the qualitative difference between the British annexing India (or the Romans annexing Britain) and the Macsomeones annexing the Macsomeonelses?

And how far back do we have to go to find a first people, living in their Garden of Eden state, to whom the right of self determination attaches?

Take Cumbria as an example. The earliest records suggest it was part of a Celtic Brigantian federation which covered most of what is now northern England. The Celts themselves were incomers who displaced (or at least took over from) their proto-Celtic predecessors, who in turn were descended from waves of different peoples who had been pitching up through the Bronze Age.

The Brigantes were conquered and/or assimilated into the Roman empire. Following the fall of Rome, Cumbria coalesced into a Romano-Britsh kingdom called Rheged. After a brief but glorious hiatus, Rheged fell to English Northumbria. English Northumbria in turn lost it to the Manx/Irish Viking settlers who in turn were absorbed by expanding British Strathclyde. Strathclyde in turn became part of Scotland (settled by the Irish Dal Riadans), who controlled Cumbria until it was ceded to the Norman French kings in the late 11th Century.

So, who has the right of self determination in Cumbria? Who are the Cumbrian people? Who are the oppressed and who are the oppressors? Where do we draw the line - and when (in historical terms) do we draw it?

Regards,

Peter
 
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I'm not saying a return to Empire would be a good thing. I'm saying that in the specific case of Zimbabwe, it would be less bad than the state of famine, poverty and rampant AIDS they presently suffer. Life expectancy there was (a few years ago) in the early 30s. There is little political freedom, the economy is in ruins and there's no food. Zimbabwe doesn't have self-determination (which would be the best course) now. A peaceful and well-run province is better than a dictatorship.
 
Does that include from Brussels?

For me it certainly does, I was a No voter when it came to Lisbon, and I'll continue to oppose such attempts to erode national independence.

I'm not saying a return to Empire would be a good thing. I'm saying that in the specific case of Zimbabwe, it would be less bad than the state of famine, poverty and rampant AIDS they presently suffer. Life expectancy there was (a few years ago) in the early 30s. There is little political freedom, the economy is in ruins and there's no food. Zimbabwe doesn't have self-determination (which would be the best course) now. A peaceful and well-run province is better than a dictatorship.

I'd rather live in a lawless nation of my own than live in a stable imperial province. There is also no evidence whatever to suggest that Zimbabwean problems are a result of their own independence and not the deplorable ambitions of a single power-mad despot.
 
All right people, let's keep to the topic of 'Ancient' Empires, the topic is derailing dangerously.

I've always liked the Mesopotamian empires myself.
 
Tough to define greatest, but I'd definately go for either the Persian empire or the cumulated contributions of Greece's Golden Age (I suppose I could pin it down to the Athenian Mediterranean maritime empire that effectively peaked with Pericles - now there's a mouthful - but could/should include Alexander's conquests as well, even if a few centuries removed, and even if he was Macedonian).

Anyway, I'd choose the Persian for the fact that it was the first true super-power and, according to some sources, held a higher percentage of the world's population within it's nations than any empire that came after it (which kind of makes sense, seeing as population numbers are always incrementally expanding). It also managed to establish a kind of social, religious, and economic equilibrium - at least, to some degree - across the different nationalities and belief systems. It obviously wasn't perfect, but at least conquering a new nation didn't always mean genocide.

And I'd choose the Greek for the sheer number of innovations in studying and understanding the natural world around us, how we perceive it and ourselves. Philosophy, art, literature, etc. When also factoring in how influential Greek art and learning was to the likes of the Roman empire, the Renaissance, and even to the British empire as well as other European powers, and their subsequent influence on the world-stage, well it's hard not to declare a winner, but I guess it depends on what you look for in "greatness".
 
The Akkadian's weren't technically an Empire- I think the Neo-Assyrians are considered the first real Empire.
 
They all had a golden era, all of the great kingdoms that is. They all fell but the longest surviving was maybe Egypt, but that is just a guess. Ask the Ancient Greeks for the answers because they might know whereas other kingdoms did not know and therefore how could they be great.
 
I would argue that the British Empire, as the precursor to the modern western world, is the greatest empire of all time. I have listed below some of the reasons for my choice.

Science and Technology

Technology - The British Empire made huge strides in technology. The pace of development was rapid and helped to furnish Britain with the resources necessary to support such a huge Empire. Britain invented, amongst other things - The Steam Engine, The Jet Engine, Combustion Engine, Lightbulb, Television, Telephone, Electrical Motor, Train, Radio, Vacuum Cleaner, World-Wide -Web. Just some of the things Britain is famed for and that have helped to shape a remould the modern world.

Science

Britain has contibuted some of the worlds most famous scientists to their respective fields: Newton, Fleming, Bell, Stephenson, Watt, Brunel.

Culture

An embarrassment of riches:

Literature: Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Burns, Wordsworth, Dickens, Woolfe, Austen, Tolkien to name but a few.

Art - Godfrey Kneller, William Blake, Raeburn, John Constable, George Frederick Watts.

Architecture - Buckingham Palace, Forth Rail Bridge, Big Ben and the Houses of Parliament, Tower of London, Edinburgh Castle, Westminster Abbey; Cathedrals - Durham, Canterbury, Salisbury.

Sports (Inventors of) - Football, Cricket, Rugby, Snooker all were first played in Britain.

Healthcare - Invented Antibiotics and modern hospital/nursing environment through Flemming and Florence Nightingale.

Economics - Adam Smith's 'The Wealth of Nations' paved the way for global trading as it exists today.

Food - British cuisine enjoyed throughout te world. English Breakfast, Fish and Chips, Sandwich, Roast Beef etc.

Empire - Controlled one quarter of the worlds land mass. No other empire has ever come near the global power which Britain held. Annexed Canada, Australia, India, New Zealand, Egypt, Nigeria, South Africa, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Sudan and many small island states to the empire, (oh and of course the US) which existed, in parts, between the late sixteenth to mid twentieth centuries. This is approximately 350 to 400 years depending on when you consider it to begin and end, though, of course, it could still be argued to be in existence today.

Military - Exceptionally well drilled army and navy. The largest navy fleet ever to have existed was the British and this allowed for Britain to boss the world on the seas and to claim such large swathes of land. Tactically superior fighting skills allowed the Brits to conquer and hold land where numbers were drastically inferior.

Politics - It was (and still is) Britains political system which was the model for that of most, if not all, of the colonies under its governance. Whilst Britain undeniably created problems when withdrawing from parts of her empire and leaving them to self-governance she also helped to bring order and society to those who had never experienced it before. I'm not advocationg colonialism here, just stating that Britain did, in her time in control of these countries build the infrastructure and political basis for the continued government of many of these countries. Obviously there have been failures, but look to the good that was done also. We can see Canada, New Zealand and Australia as versions of democracy and self-governance which it could easily be argued (with more space and time than I have here unfortunately!) have surpassed modern Britain. The Indian railway network, for example, was British built and now transports 20m passengers daily over 40,000 miles of track.

I think that the British Empire was responsible for many technological, cultural, political and social advances. We live in a world today which is based around the foundations laid by the British Empire. English is the primary language of the world. The legacy of the British Empire is clear for all to see, and though Britain has now ceded most of her colonies and is in steady decline the British Empire remains, for me, the greatest in terms of size, power, innovation and influence, that has ever existed.
 
This isn't even a question. Rome, of course, was the greatest.

In partial refutation of the above poster, I would argue that while surviving paragons of British art are indeed lovely, they are hardly seminal. Continental European art, particular French and Italian, later French and German, is far more influential in the modern art world.
 
British Empire- to witness the death struggles of same- visit Canada.(The Provinces, doncha know?) ...where a lot of the techniques used to uhhh enslave various nations are still very visible. (Double taxation, thug police, massive drug dealing, bent judges etc. etc.)
Don't cause a fuss though, becos' its been mostly sold to China recently and they don't take kindly to much of anything that isn't Chinese.
I don't blame English people, the Americans and Canadians are just as bad- its just that danged little elite white power-crazed old boy's club, would be nice if they finally got some come-uppence. Not that it would undo the damage, nor would they would pay anything back, unless forced to... I just hope to live long enough to see it fall apart.
The greatest Empire? ... will be the next one, because nothing that ties back directly to open slavery can truly be considered 'great'.
 

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