Appreciation of 'Western' novels

[Bick]

I've read several times here (and elsewhere) SFF fans writing that they are not fans of 'Westerns' particularly. I'm sure there will be fans of westerns out there, but the lack of a love for this genre from many seems to be more than just anecdotal to me, and I'm curious about this for a number of reason, hence this thread for discussion of the love or otherwise of this unfashionable genre.

Personally, I love a good western, and I love SF, so for me they go together and like any human, I struggle with understanding opinions that differ from mine (joking to some extent). The thing is, there are many links between the genres, which make it easy to like both: Space Opera novels are basically westerns in space. The most popular space opera of them all (Star Wars) was based loosely on the plotting and characterization of the Japanese 'western' The Hidden Fortress, for example. And Lucas did this because he loved the western tropes, the "goodies versus baddies" and the broad backdrop to the horse operas of Ford and others. Likewise, the tropes and plots in much SF borrows from the trials and tribulations seen in the great westerns (both film and literary). In addition, it occurs to me that the 'western' represents a clear genre, like SFF. It will never be non-genre and mainstream. It attracts slightly geeky folks, not unlike ourselves. There must surely be a good deal of overlap.

I suspect some of the distaste for 'western' literature comes from the fact that it has a reputation for pulpiness that even exceeds that in SFF. It may be that a lack of knowledge of fine western literature* affects the genres appreciation. Or it may be that folk simply don't like it, I'm not sure. I'm starting a thread on the Literary Fiction subforum for 'Literary Westerns', to discuss specific novels by Guthrie, McMurtry and others, so if you like particular literary westerns please come and comment there. If you don't, or if want to discuss the question of appreciating the genre or not, let me know what you think here.

* For example, A. B. Guthrie Jr won the Pulitzer Prize in 1950, for a fantastic western novel, see other thread...

 

[MWagner]

I've read Lonesome Dove, and the Big Sky has made it into my 'to read' pile a couple times, before being bumped.

The thing about Westerns, and other genres I've not delved into, is I'll want to my introduction to the genre to be the best that genre has to offer. So I read Lonesome Dove. Really enjoyed it. But why, after having read the best the genre has to offer, should I carry on to explore the lesser works?

 

[Bick]

I've read Lonesome Dove, and the Big Sky has made it into my 'to read' pile a couple times, before being bumped.

The thing about Westerns, and other genres I've not delved into, is I'll want to my introduction to the genre to be the best that genre has to offer. So I read Lonesome Dove. Really enjoyed it. But why, after having read the best the genre has to offer, should I carry on to explore the lesser works?

Ha! I've read "Dune" by Frank Herbert, so I'm not going to read any more SF. Hmm...

 

[Soltan_Gris]

Nice thread. I've always believed westerns and science fiction share a lot of common themes: frontier life, revenge, moral ambiguity, interlopers vs. natives, human expansion, just to name a few. The main difference is the ratio of quality work to pure drek. I think you could read all that is worth reading in the western genre with a handful of novels. A handful of quality SF novels? Just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Bick]

Nice thread. I've always believed westerns and science fiction share a lot of common themes: frontier life, revenge, moral ambiguity, interlopers vs. natives, human expansion, just to name a few.

Thanks, I agree.

The main difference is the ratio of quality work to pure drek. I think you could read all that is worth reading in the western genre with a handful of novels. A handful of quality SF novels? Just the tip of the iceberg.

But I think a "handful" is probably quite an under estimate.

 

[tinkerdan]

I'm not sure about the close analogies between westerns and SF or at least in some form of exclusivity. I think that all fiction contains enough crossover elements in style and plot that it's not that hard to have interest in a variety. I've known quite a number of SF fans who have half their shelf full of westerns. One seemed to fancy L'Amour. He talked me into reading a few and I might have read more at the time but he went off with his library of books and I was never tempted to buy my own.

For me, since I did enjoy them, it's more a matter of-if I run out of SF I might try more westerns. But with the bursting fountain of Self-Publishing out there that might be some time.

I used to read a number of mystery books also, but find less time for those.

 

[J Riff]

I don't even have to read the post, we read this rubbish and some of it was great. Basically almost a fantasy setting in some respects, the old west was full of injuns and snakes and owlhoots and bank robbers. Guys might bust through the walls of an old prison and escape acrost the desert at night and it was a classic plot all of a sudden, and some of the writing was excellent while plenty was cheesy and trite, like some of the SF was.
Dunno why I remember that one, there were just tons of short stories around and the best writers had the injuns killin' off the white devils as often as not, so there was a real element of suspense there. People forget that wolves, for example, were once a real danger in this country.
The real stuff though, count me in if there's time I'll read up and provide character support. With a six-gun. Just stay away from that dang book-learnin' littry stuff boy... you belong heah on this ranch, and don't let no word-slingin' city slicker try to tell you otherwise.

 

[dask]

Lewis B. Patten, Max Brand, and Will Henry are pretty good. Need to try Zane Grey sometime.

 

[reiver33]

I grew up with Westerns as they were one of the genres my granny selected from the mobile lending library, along with pulp fiction detective novels and 'plantation romances'. I even have a Western WIP which I return to as a break from SF et al, same as my conventional romance story (positive first-page feedback from Harlequin!). I quite agree that a lot of SF plots can be 'just' Westerns in space (e.g. Battle Beyond The Stars) but that doesn't detract from my enjoyment.

 

[Hex]

I read a lot of Westerns when I was a teenager (around the same time/ slightly before I discovered fantasy authors like David Gemmell). I was especially obsessed by J.T. Edson, and I read a fair number of Louis L'Amour as well. I know all about the importance of having your own hand-made boots and hat.

Thanks for the thread. I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed them -- I must go back and read some more (probably not J.T. Edson -- like the Baroness Orczy books, I have a feeling he's best read in one's teens and I don't want to spoil my fond memories by re-reading now).

 

[Randy M.]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned True Grit by Charles Portis, basis for two pretty good Western movies (taking the word of critics for the Coen Brothers version; I will see it one of these days). I'm not sure the book is as great as its supporters hold, but it is certainly good.

Also, I haven't read it, but Walter Van Tilberg Clark's The Track of the Cat is said to be quite strong, too.


Randy M.

 

[Extollager]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned True Grit by Charles Portis.

You are spot on, Randy. I read that not too long ago and liked it very much. (I also relished other works by Portis, who was kind of my discovery-of-the-year then!)

 

[Extollager]

There's now a Charles Portis thread. I hope it will be swamped by people who've already discovered this entertaining author, or who will.

Charles Portis: True Grit, Norwood, Dog of the South, Gringos, and more

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

I'm a big fan of Westerns in space, but have loathed every 'proper' Western I've ever read. It's only a dozen or so of the big name books from the big name authors, but what I've read I didn't like. It's not the pulpiness, I love me some pulp. It's not the tropes, as mentioned they pop up other places, especially in space operas and other SF. And I enjoy a good Western film, so my 'dislike' of the genre is directed at and comes from the literature side.

What I dislike about Western novels (those I've read), comes from two things. The setting and the racism.

The setting is almost always a character unto itself, and it's a damned boring character at that. Overlong descriptions of the tumbleweed and high plains and scrub grass. And don't forget the dusty, dusty, trail. Every homestead is interchangeable with every other. Frontier towns blend together. Snore.

Most of the stuff I read clearly bought into the idea of white superiority or manifest destiny and treated blacks and Indians as savages at best, or frequently lost children in need of civilization. Along with this it's also mostly told from a white perspective, with the evil Indians raiding the peaceful homestead, completely ignoring the historical fact that the homestead was on Indian land and the whites were literally invading. Further, authors seem to justify white aggression of any kind whilst damning any and all non-white aggression. To say nothing of a genre that seems to elevate freedom above everything else whilst largely ignoring slavery and it's aftermath entirely. And the death toll of Chinese immigrants required to build the railroads. Or the treatment of Mexicans.

Now, I know my reading of the genre is limited, and I'm sure there are a few books that specifically deal with each point I've mentioned, but those few books would seem to be the exceptions that prove the rule. The big names I read seemed most interested in a white or male only gaze with a heap of historical blindness and a rather large dollop of repetitious genre tropes.

 

[soulsinging]

Ha! I've read "Dune" by Frank Herbert, so I'm not going to read any more SF. Hmm...

I had the same thought, but I've also read Lonesome Dove and I kind of know what he means. It's one of the best epic novels I ever read of any genre and it kind of dwarfs the rest of the genre in a way Dune doesn't.

I've never much cared for other westerns. Louis L'Amour underwhelmed. I did like king's gunslinger, but that is apparently an odd opinion all around.

 

[svalbard]

I am a big fan of Larry McMurtry. His prose and storyteling are excellent. Although not strictly a 'western' and more of a history book Dee Booth's, Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee, is a real classic.

 

[Soltan_Gris]

I'd recommend The Year the Cloud Fell by Kurt R.A. Giambastiani to any SF fan looking to jump into this genre. It's an alternate history novel where George Custer, after a victory at Little Bighorn becomes president and sets the United States in an even more militaristic stance against the Cheyenne. However, his son is captured during a reconnaissance mission and complicates the issue greatly. There's a bit of a fantasy element to it, as well as a touch of steampunk.

 

[Toby Frost]

I'm surprised that Cormac McCarthy hasn't been mentioned yet. I've only read The Road, which isn't really a western but gets close. I really dislike his prose style, which strikes me as pretentious, but he's certainly popular. His early books, especially Blood Meridian, get a lot of praise. And perhaps it's just the setting and the big issues, but I think there's a bit of Western in some of Steinbeck's books.

 

[Vince W]

I've read a few Western books. Max Brand, Zane Grey, Larry McMurtry, and a couple of others. While some I've enjoyed, some were meh. I could never stand Louis L'Amour. I never got more than a few pages into the couple I tried.

McMurtry seems to be more literary, while authors like Brand and Grey wrote what were essentially bodice rippers for men set in the American west. Even in the McMurtry books I felt most of it was a fairly exaggerated version of the truth though.

 

[biodroid]

I only read one Louis Lamour book and it was pretty good, I dont remember the name. Havent read anymore but love the movie versions