Do we still need agents?

[Jo Zebedee]

All right, I'm in a funny place but a reflective place and I've been thinking about this for a few weeks (well, specifically, since I was dropped by my agent). We work so hard to get one and I just wonder if it is worth it. Some of the things I'm musing on:

The Pros:

I got onto editors' desks I'd never have got near
I got a lot of editorial input
I got a lot of confidence from the knowledge someone in the industry thought I was good enough
I learned loads about contracts and am confident I know the worst clauses at least to look out for

The cons:

Frankly, a fair number of presses subbed to were small presses I could have subbed to myself.
I did a lot of extra rewrites which didn't, actually make the book more marketable.
It was slow - if I'd have subbed direct I'd have had the subs in and a sale made or not before now. I'd know where I stand.
It doesn't disbar you from self publishing but I suspect makes it less likely.

Essentially, an agent will get you to the top publishers. They will get you past the slush pile with small presses. But anything I have being published, and any leads I'm following, were set up by me.

So, um, says me on the agent hunt again - what are the thoughts? Do we need agents or is it viable to go it alone (I know @Stephen Palmer and @Mouse have). Are they part of an outdated business model? Are we torturously seeking something when we should be chasing something else (ie a publisher...)

Thoughts?

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

Sorry to hear, springs. That sucks.

If I may, the biggest bit of advice I could give is don't wrap up your confidence in yourself as a writer with others' approval. That way lies madness.

It all depends on what you want. If you want to go the trad route, agents can help or they can hurt. I speak from experience when I say that submissions that come in with an agent are put at the top of the slush pile, or get their own pile entirely. The presumption being that someone else has already vetted the work to some degree so that helps cut through the process. Many publishers view agents as the stage one slush pile reader.

I don't know what you think of Kris Rusch or Dean Wesley Smith, but they've been in the business a long, long time. They've posted about this a bit. The most important of those articles, I think, is the first Dean link below, his myths and sacred cow series is really worth reading. There's also a piece from the SFWA and one from John Scalzi.

Here's a few go it alone articles:
http://www.deanwesleysmith.com/kill...ublishing-4-you-need-an-agent-to-sell-a-book/
http://www.deanwesleysmith.com/the-new-world-of-publishing-the-assumption-of-agents-2/
http://kriswrites.com/2011/06/01/the-business-rusch-agents-surviving-the-transition-part-3/
http://kriswrites.com/2012/11/14/the-business-rusch-agents-and-money/

A piece from the SFWA about agents:
http://www.sfwa.org/other-resources/for-authors/writer-beware/agents/

Here's a Agent FAQs from Scalzi:
http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/004020.html

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Cheers, Fishbowl. I'm actually okay about it - it smarted at the time, though - and it was all amicable and to do with the range I write vs her specialism.

That first article is really interesting (I'll get to the others in the morning.) it says some of what I'm musing on - about whether the model is outdated. I do know if I do sign with another agent (and wanting a trad deal, I will if there's a good fit) I would be much less likely to do endless rewrites and changes, so that part of his advice was very interesting. But at the point of my writing when I signed the approach suited me and I learned a lot.

 

[ratsy]

Sorry Springs. I hadn't heard that news. If you think about it, your trilogy was signed by your contact so did your agent do anything to warrant the paycheque? (Short of the editorial notes and such)

You will sell a billion books and they will be banging on your door.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Sorry Springs. I hadn't heard that news. If you think about it, your trilogy was signed by your contact so did your agent do anything to warrant the paycheque? (Short of the editorial notes and such)

You will sell a billion books and they will be banging on your door.

No, there are no concerns on that level - the agent and agency have been more than fair. cheers. But it's not really about me - I'm actually happy enough - but more about are we chasing the wrong rainbow?

 

[ratsy]

No, there are no concerns on that level - the agent and agency have been more than fair. cheers. But it's not really about me - I'm actually happy enough - but more about are we chasing the wrong rainbow?

I meant that new agents will be banging on your door!

 

[ralphkern]

I probably differ from a fair few people's views on this one in that I am more reactive. E.g I've never made an approach to a publisher. That's not me being big headed, just that I was quite happily sailing along SP'd.

Having then been approached by two different publishers in the space of a week, I hope Gary won't mind me saying, I let them sell the benefits to me of going with them.

The hypothetical is would I have got a better deal out of them had an agent negotiated royalties for me, and would that better deal have more than offsetted the agent's cut.

One can negotiate themselves. I did with the audiobook folks and they rolled... but the thing was, I was operating from a position of zero information on what a decent rate was on audiobook royalties (information on the net is scant on audio). I still might not have reached what is truly the best arrangement for me. They offered one thing for the rights, I countered with another and they said yes. That implies that they probably had a % in mind and I was under it.

Would an agent have got me a better %? Probably, they are operating from a more informed position.

Would that extra percentage be more than the agents cut? Possibly.

I'm not losing sleep over it. The audio rights were sitting not being used, and I have a rough idea of what they would accept now, and will go for higher next time. Live and learn.

I've said it before, and I firmly believe it... the models changing. I believe publishers will allow the readers to sort the slush pile and they will approach the SP'ers who are proven sellers and help hone their work. If I were agent, I would target the top sellers in the SP market. Whether they're critically good or not is irrelevant to them. They want sales.

Hugh Howey, like him or loath him, had an agent cold approach him with an email where the subject heading was '150 things wrong with Wool' and then offered solutions. That's the kind of attitude I personally like - bring me solutions not problems!





By the way... movie rights are still available!

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I think that getting an agent at the point where you have a contract to negotiate is important -- and that's the time when it is easiest to get a good agent, too -- because even though we may know the dangerous clauses to avoid, we don't know all the different ways that an agent knows that will make the deal better.

But whether you need to start out with an agent, I am not so sure. There are still publishers of all different sizes where you can submit without an agent -- and as for making sure you don't end up at the bottom of the slush pile, that's what networking is for. If they know you, they're more likely to look at your manuscript sooner -- especially if you have already intrigued them by casually slipping in a pitch during an ordinary conversation. Although I have known writers for whom this has not worked, I also have known authors where a conversation with an editor met at a convention resulted in a deal in a surprisingly short period of time. (Think of Anne Lyle.)

So, as you say, there are pros and cons, and you have an interesting decision before you. (But, as Ursa might say, cons are where you can meet the pros.)

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I meant that new agents will be banging on your door!

I got that, and thank you.

Actually, part of what Fishbowl said is also worth thinking about - when we are young writers (as in writing young, not age...) how much of our writing self worth comes from the idea of an agent thinking we're good enough? That's certainly maybe skewed.

I think, also, what Teresa says about contracts is important and worth thinking about.

I suppose part of it depends what we want to get out of this writing gig....

 

[Brian G Turner]

I got onto editors' desks I'd never have got near

I think this is a key reason to have an agent. And even if a writer feels they have the confidence to sub and sell directly, an agent can get foreign rights sales that the writer may not. It's my impression that the latter especially justify an agents fees.

Frankly, a fair number of presses subbed to were small presses I could have subbed to myself.

This sounds like a good point that writers should talk to an agent about, before signing.

But anything I have being published, and any leads I'm following, were set up by me.

Unfortunately, I've met a number of writers whose (reputable) agents have been unable to sell their manuscripts. Publishing house editors have also told me that sometimes they'll absolutely love a story, but marketing won't sign off on it.

At least the advantage these days is that a writer does have more options, with self-publishing and an explosion of small presses covering ground that traditional publishers won't cover, for one reason or another.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

In terms of the submission strategy - this is, as far as I know from other agented friends - is discussed in advance. But anyone who doesn't expect their second/third tier subs to include the bigger small presses (which can be subbed to directly) is probably misguided in terms of the market - sff remains niche, to an extent. There are only so many publishers out there.

 

[Mouse]

The Pros:
I got onto editors' desks I'd never have got near
I got a lot of editorial input I got this from my publishers
I got a lot of confidence from the knowledge someone in the industry thought I was good enough Again, I got this from my publishers
I learned loads about contracts and am confident I know the worst clauses at least to look out for I got this from various places - AW, here, the internet in general, speaking to other authors etc. etc.

So from your 'pro' list, the only thing I didn't get from doing it the way I did was having my MS subbed to the big guys. But, as you know, my MSs were niche anyway and the big guys wouldn't have been interested.

I always knew I wanted Dreamspinner to publish Shuttered, so I was pretty much always going to sign if they accepted. And I was lucky enough to have two offers for Otherworld, so I got to pick who worked best for me. I thoroughly researched both publishers before I signed anything anyway, and, despite having offers from a few people to look through the contracts for me, they were both really simple, easy for me to understand, and pretty damn good.

So for me, for those two novels, there's nothing an agent would've done that I couldn't have done.

For my next romance novel, I'm just going to offer it to Dreamspinner straight away. If they reject it, then I'll look at my other options, but I'm in a good position now.

I will be seeking an agent again at some point, but not for the romance stuff. My fantasy WiP I'd like to get an agent for (once it's all done and shiny, obvs.) as I'd like it to have a shot with the big guys.

So, in my experience/opinion, it depends on where you want it submitted to.

edited to add, re foreign rights... Dreamspinner publish books in many other languages, plus audio books, and it was in my contract that if I sell well enough, it'll go through translation.

 

[Hex]

From the little I have learned, I think it depends on what you want. I also think working with an agent is a learning process, like any of the processes to do with learning to write. As with many things, you need a clear idea of what you're good at and what they're good at, what to let them change and what you should stick to like glue.

Unfortunately, it's much easier to see these things in retrospect.

I'm not really keen on the idea of researching publishers etc., and I hate rejections, so if having an agent just means I don't need to do that, then it works for me.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

A tricky question to answer...

All I can do is give you the benefit of my experience and say, "I did what I've done since 1995 without an agent". To be honest, so much of what I've done has come about through luck, which is the main reason I keep banging on about how lucky you have to be in this business. I got picked up off the slush pile of Little, Brown after a five year wait - 1/10,000 chance. Then I hit the Great Dropping Of The SF Authors, then got lucky with Wildside in America, then got lucky years later with a random sub (PS Publishing), then used networking. It's 90% luck and 9% friends in the biz. The other 1% is pure luck.

Sorry if that doesn't help, Jo, but after an almost 20 year "career" I see things differently to how I used to. You can make your own luck by never giving up. I've wanted to give up a couple of times, but somehow managed to drag myself through the depressions. The only other thing I would say - take the long term view. Think 5, 10, 15 years ahead.

Stay lucky!

 

[millymollymo]

A few things have landed on my 'desk' that had me considering my options as a writer too. Just as you outlined springs, we are all lead to believe /mindwashed into thinking that the only way forward is through preplanned steps. 1. write the book. 2. Get the agent. 3. Return to step one several times.( This is the goalpost shift they don't tell you about ) 4. Get the publisher. ... (repeat step 3 until marketing says go)

A lot of this 'intel' comes out of agents so, cynical me wonders if this is self preservation.
Much like the #tickboo panel, conventions, and the BFS BSFA pub meets have revealed. Small presses are home to some resoundly awesome - agentless stuff.

This theory is backed up by coments from other author (none sff) friends I have, who have had and dropped agents, and equally sum up in the same fashion. They didn't need (for what ever reason) the agent within the process.

 

[Wo7f]

I tried to go the traditional route for a couple of years, but I couldn't get an agent. Then I started to consider self-publishing. When I first thought of these people I thought they were insane. I did a bit of research, looked at the pros and cons of what other people like me were going thorough, and finally decided self-publishing was for me. But this, more than anything else, was what changed my mind... It's a FREE PDF: Let’s Get Digital by David Gaughran (Updated July 2011)

Hope it helps any who are interested.

 

[Denise Tanaka]

I have often wondered about this question. I have queried agents years ago with no more success than I had by diving into the slush pile at Tor or DAW. This past year, I've had some experiences and some epiphanies.

Informational Anecdote: Apart from fiction writing, I've had the "day job" of admin/secretarial work leading up to my current career as an immigration paralegal. Wa-a-a-a-ay back when I was a freshman in college, I signed up with Kelly temp staffing services because of advice that it would be a good, easy way to gain work experience that I did not have. I could type and I knew how to alphabetize, and that was about it. I had a very hard time getting placed, even though I called the agency every day to ask what was available for me. Finally, I landed a permanent secretarial job by answering a classified ad on my own. I stayed in that job 5 years. Later, when I relocated to another area, I signed up with Kelly temps again in hopes of earning cash right away. With a resume showing actual work experience, I got placed immediately. They were calling me to ask my availability instead of the other way around. Even after I quit working for a while, to stay home with the baby, the staffing agency kept calling me!

It took a long time for my slow head to realize that agents and publishers (no matter how large or small) are primarily business people. The novels and short stories that I hold so dear to my heart are just a marketable product. As much as I wish it were not so, I've come to believe that they don't care if your writing is crap or if it is the most beautiful prose since Shakespeare penned his sonnets. They just want to know if it will sell. It's that old Catch-22, no one will hire you without experience, and you can't get experience if no one will hire you.

The internet is becoming the new proving ground for self-published authors and bloggers. This was the business model that led the 50 Shades author to her commercial success. That thing started off as fan fiction! Likewise, another YA fantasy author Cassandra Clare (Mortal Instruments) -- I first heard her name from my daughters who were reading Harry Potter fan fiction. Cassandra jumped into that period of a long gap in between the later books, when the fans were getting impatient for J.K. to finish typing, and she wrote an entire alternate-version of finishing up the Harry Potter series. By establishing herself in that fan base, Cassandra carried them over to be fans of her original fiction. She essentially proved herself in the marketplace before submitting to an agent or publisher.

So, where does that leave someone like me? I have zero experience in self-publicity and marketing. What's more, I have made peace with myself that I do not have the temperament for it. Some people enjoy it. Some people are savvy about it. Jim Butcher (Dresden Files) made a sparkling one-on-one impression meeting an agent at a convention. I'm sure, if I sat in the same chair facing the same person, I would not make the same impression. I am just not that interesting or articulate as a person!

Gosh, now I'm rambling and making myself sad. I hope I'm not killing the thread!

 

[Dennis E. Taylor]

From reading this and other boards, I can see that having an agent is no guarantee of success. Having one probably increases your chances of success, but the downside is the amount of time spent querying, then the amount of time spent by the agent looking for a publisher to pick it up, then the amount of time to get the book published. I've seen times of a year+ quoted from the time you get an agent until you're published, and I've seen times of up to a couple of years of querying to get an agent. With no guarantees either way, of course.
I'll tell you where I would consider an agent invaluable-- if Stephen J. Cannell was to show up on my doorstep, asking to make my novel into a series, I would would get an agent to do the negotiations. And I doubt I'd have any trouble getting one in those circumstances.

 

[ZombieWife]

I plan on going the agent route, but I think a lot of writers are seduced by the notion of just being accepted BY an agent--when the writers do have power to negotiate terms. One agent I know said that most of her writing clients are "too nice" and too eager to get that book deal to worry about their own terms.

I'm not sure if that's true, but it makes me think a bit.

 

[Karn Maeshalanadae]

Maybe so, but taking on the stress of negotiations by yourself, on top of WRITING your manuscript(s) and even just getting it worthy of consideration...I would say that some delegation could still have value.