GRRM - honest thoughts?

[Nechtan]

I'll get my coat.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Why, Mrs Snow of course.

Wrong. "Some woman, no doubt." is the correct answer. ahaha

 

[Boaz]

Still, it would be fun if Boaz or Arsten Whitebeard were actually George Martin....

I can confirm that I'm not George Martin, I'm sure my mother would have told me.

I think I remember, either a poster's comments or someone linking to GRRM's remarks, that GRRM and other writers of his fame do not and will not browse fan forums. It seems that they do this for two reasons. First, by not lurking here and laughing at our theories, they maintain plausible deniability from stealing ideas. It greatly lessens the chance that I could try and sue GRRM for "stealing" my theory of A+L=J.

Also, by not browsing, GRRM will not find lots of fan fiction based upon Westeros. In order to protect his intellectual property, GRRM (and all other writers) must rigorously pursue efforts to make fans cease and desist from derivative works. Ninety-nine percent of them are harmless homages, but if they are let to stand, the one hundredth person can come along and claim GRRM actively permits (even encourages) others to profit from Westeros... and GRRM loses his rights. GRRM has come out against fan fiction, not because of the legal hassles, but because it inhibits original art. He encourages fans to dream up their own realms and their own characters in order to express their own stories.

But this does not mean that GRRM does not have any indirect interaction with fan sites like the Chronicles Network. You may have noticed posts, in this very thread, from Werthead. I do not know Wert personally nor have I ever corresponded with him other than posts in this forum, but it seems he is a very active, well known, and well respected blogger regarding fantasy and sci-fi lit, tv, and film... and thus is well connected to writers and publishers... and thus is well informed. I've inferred, from his posts over the years, that Wert has met GRRM at conventions and has corresponded with GRRM in his role as a journalist. If you'll crack open your copy of A Dance with Dragons, you might notice that GRRM thanked a great many people in helping him... Werthead is one of them. As a blogger/journalist, Wert has kept us abreast of a number of issues regarding publication dates, book signings, HBO developments, etc... This is complete conjecture, but I imagine that Wert is one person who gives GRRM feedback about fans on the web. "George, some poster named Srylanna is advocating a new Cersei Slim diet." "Hey, just thought you'd want to know that all the fans over on the Chrons all believe that Varys is the High Septon." "George, I read a rumor that you're doing Will Wheaton's Table Talk vlog for ASOIAF RPG. Care to comment?" "There's some guy claiming to have figured out the end of the story by a Grand Unified Theory of Everything revolving around the Mad King's bastards... is this true?"

Another poster to watch is Raven. I don't think I've seen Raven post in two years or more, but if he's not connected to GRRM's publisher then he is in possession of a prodigious memory.

I encourage all of you to look back through the older and most popular threads from eight to ten years ago. You don't need to read everything, just scroll through looking for posts from Raven and Wert. Notice how up to date and how informed their posts are. They are also very rational, well reasoned posters. They are neither haters nor starry eyed fanboys. I don't know that Raven is connected to GRRM, but like Wert he's in the industry or a commentator upon it.

 

[Narkalui]

Or Werthead is GRRM.....?

 

[Boaz]

No... here the link to Wert's blog... the Wertzone.

 

[Narkalui]

Nah, I was only joking. Your comment about plausible deniability was far too compelling.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

"George, some poster named Srylanna is advocating a new Cersei Slim diet."

I protest. If I advocated a slim diet, it would be Dacey Fit.

"Hey, just thought you'd want to know that all the fans over on the Chrons all believe that Varys is the High Septon."

I can name only one. T-T

"George, I read a rumor that you're doing Will Wheaton's Table Talk vlog for ASOIAF RPG. Care to comment?" "There's some guy claiming to have figured out the end of the story by a Grand Unified Theory of Everything revolving around the Mad King's bastards... is this true?"

Answer would be like: "You'll have to read to find out."

 

[Boaz]

Mmmmmmm, Dacey.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Mmmmmmm, Dacey.

This is how I know you aren't GRRM. If you were, Dacey would still be alive. ahaha

 

[Ursa major]

Talking of diets:

"Want to be really Thenn? Just eat crow...."

​

* Gets coat. *

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Talking of diets:

"Want to be really Thenn? Just eat crow...."

​

* Gets coat. *

I still cringe at that change in the TVShow... One of the changes I hated the most...

 

[Reivax26]

He's a great writer who is frustrated by a lot of fans who think they know his world better than he does. Its the same thing that happened to George Lucas. He used to love Star Wars and now thanks to the assholes that complained about his prequel trilogy he can't stand the science fiction genre as a whole.

I am done talking about the man. If he finishes the story he does and if he doesn't then oh well. I will watch the show to get me through. I do agree that the last 2 weren't as good as the first 3.

Just my opinion

 

[Nechtan]

Wrong. "Some woman, no doubt." is the correct answer. ahaha

(Slaps forehead). Of course.

 

[Boaz]

Two more thoughts...

I know I've become a Martin apologist. Yet, in all fairness, I admit his prognostications regarding his progress has hurt his reputation. He quit giving predictions six years ago or so... after trying to make everyone content by giving us updates from 2000-2007 or so. In hindsight, his optimistic forecasts would have been better shelved in favor of "No comment." or "It's a work in progress."

Also, I mentioned Raven and Werthead as posters with insight into GRRM and the publishing industry... but they are not the only posters upon whom you should keep an eye. All of us have observations about characters or make connections between plots which we eagerly share. But one poster who consistently relates events and characters to each other (connections that I never see or imagine) is Young stormlord. His thread, Not so important connections is a treasure trove of new thinking and plausible conjecture. I don't want anyone to feel bad that I did not name them... but in trying to figure out the story and connect the dots, these are the posters who force me to put on my thinking cap.

 

[soulsinging]

I know I've become a Martin apologist. Yet, in all fairness, I admit his prognostications regarding his progress has hurt his reputation. He quit giving predictions six years ago or so... after trying to make everyone content by giving us updates from 2000-2007 or so. In hindsight, his optimistic forecasts would have been better shelved in favor of "No comment." or "It's a work in progress."

I honestly never cared about the prognostications... AFFC was out before I ever picked up the series. He could say nothing at all or give exact dates and stick to them and it wouldn't matter because what concerns me is not his deadlines. I'm concerned by the rapidly expanding number of viewpoints in books 4-5, combined with the also expanding length of time they took to write. Book 4 read like Shades of RJ and 5 is scarcely better. Like I said, I think he has nothing but the best of intentions and would love nothing more than to release the final two books this week. I just fear he's lost control of his narrative. You and others may disagree and that's fine and I hope you're right, but I don't think it's totally unfounded to question whether he's going to be able to finish this thing up anytime in the next decade or so.

 

[Boaz]

soul, when you write that GRRM has "lost control of his narrative" and you refer to the twenty-one concurrent POVs as evidence... well I cannot disagree with you. With five chapters to go in ADWD, Aeron, Areo, Arianne, Arya, Asha, Barristan, Bran, Brienne, Cersei, Daenerys, Davos, Jaime, Jon Connington, Jon Snow, Melisandre, Quentyn, Samwell, Sansa, Theon, Tyrion, and Victarion are all still POV characters. As big a fan as I am, I still find myself asking, Where are Sansa, Aeron, and Brienne? What is going on in the Vale and the Iron Islands? What is happening to Jaime, Brienne, Stoneheart, and Pod... it's been twenty chapters!!!! The POV format that so firmly captured my attention by telling the story through selected views has now become cumbersome. I love the individual insights the characters provide... but it takes seemingly takes a long time to get back to my favorite characters and plots.

 

[Pedro Del Mar]

With five chapters to go in ADWD, Aeron, Areo, Arianne, Arya, Asha, Barristan, Bran, Brienne, Cersei, Daenerys, Davos, Jaime, Jon Connington, Jon Snow, Melisandre, Quentyn, Samwell, Sansa, Theon, Tyrion, and Victarion are all still POV characters. As big a fan as I am, I still find myself asking, Where are Sansa, Aeron, and Brienne? What is going on in the Vale and the Iron Islands? What is happening to Jaime, Brienne, Stoneheart, and Pod... it's been twenty chapters!!!! The POV format that so firmly captured my attention by telling the story through selected views has now become cumbersome. I love the individual insights the characters provide... but it takes seemingly takes a long time to get back to my favorite characters and plots.

Boaz, you hit the nail on the head every time.

 

[Boaz]

Then why is my thumb so sore?

 

[MWagner]

Martin's day-to-day activities and the success of the series and TV show are red herrings. It's the content of ASOIAF and how Martin writes that are the barriers to getting the books finished.

ASOIAF may be the largest narrative endeavor, in terms of characters and scope, ever attempted by a single writer. The number of named characters is enormous. Martin has to have dedicated assistants to keep track of all of them. That's insane. Geographically the books sprawl over dozens of distinct locations, each of which is detailed with great thoroughness by Martin. The number of plots and sub-plots is staggering. They were already labyrinth by Clash of Kings, and at this point I doubt even Martin can keep track of them all.

Fact is, he let his story get away from him. Badly. People cite the fourth and fifth book here, but the undisciplined sprawl was already evident in the second and third books. It's only the big booms of Storm of Swords, and their narrative pay-offs, that made readers overlook the fact the story was still growing in scope.

And that's where readers have to accept some of the culpability. No, it's not their fault Martin is an undisciplined writer. But the aspects that so many readers enjoy about the series - it's vast scope and myriad of characters - are what have made it near-impossible to finish at this point.

There simply isn't enough narrative road in two books to bring together all the plots and sub-plots of ASOIAF, unless Martin resorts to cheap tricks like winnowing down characters by the dozen in the next book. Even if he sticks to ten major character POVs, those character will only get 8-9 chapters each in a book. That's 80-90 pages. Let's say he shows the same ruthless winnowing in the last two books (which I doubt is even possible, to be honest). Who here thinks Dany's story can be resolved in 170 pages? Or Arya's? Or Jon's? Not gonna happen.

So how did we end up here? George R R Martin does not outline his books. Never has. He knew where this saga was going to end up, but he didn't know how he was going to get there. And in my opinion, by the third book, he was already lost in the weeds. He writes slowly, and he allows himself to be led wherever his muse leads him. Those aren't crippling handicaps for every writer. But they are for someone trying to write a multi-volume fantasy with hundreds of characters.

I don't think he is lazy or showing contempt for his fans. I think he understands more than anybody, and has for years, just how badly he has let himself get tangled in a story of maddening complexity. And now he dreads sitting down to the computer to untangle the mess he created himself.

 

[Boaz]

MWelcome MWagner! Thanks for the well stated opinion. You sound like you understand literary quandaries quite well... are you a writer? An editor?

And that's where readers have to accept some of the culpability. No, it's not their fault Martin is an undisciplined writer. But the aspects that so many readers enjoy about the series - it's vast scope and myriad of characters - are what have made it near-impossible to finish at this point.

You've described exactly what I want. But I want the heroes and villians to make mistakes, experience success, and go through difficulties. On the surface, I could compare ASOIAF with David Weber's Safehold series. Both deal with a large cast of characters moving through convoluted politics, espionage, war, and religious intrigue while an ominous and seemingly unstoppable alien is coming to commit genocide. Weber's heroes are good, honest, noble, and loving while his villains are avaricious, unscrupulous, and mean. On the other hand, Martin has some traditional heroes and villains (Brienne, Eddard, Robb, Littlefinger, Cersei, Joffrey) and yet he also has characters who blur these lines (Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, Jon, Catelyn). I much prefer ASOIAF... although judging by Weber's speed, he must strictly adhere to his outline. I get the Reformation, Industrial Revolution, Counter Reformation, and rise of Imperialism all at high speed, but I need Weber to jump ahead a hundred years or so... winter is... uh, the redcoats are.... err, I meant the Gbaba are coming!

In the past, I've named James Clavell's Shogun as the book that introduced me to the large scope, political, wartime, and all out intrigue genre... of which ASOIAF is by far my favorite. At this point, I don't need it to end. I'm not advocating a never ending cycle like Riftwar or Shanarra nor a continuous serial like Star Wars or Dragonlance. I'm enjoying the world... so as long as GRRM has the will, I'll wait.