Breaking rules

[Jo Zebedee]

Which ones do you deliberately break, you rebels?

I use continuous ings where I shouldn't, mainly to break up rhythm, or to bring speed to a series of actions.

I play with paragraph indents/placements to show people out of things a little

I use dialogue attributors that aren't said


I have sinned. I'm sorry. You?

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Mainly formating in my case. I use block paragraphs and then indent them as well. It looks good to my eyes.

I also tell a lot more as opposed to showing because I like to get inside my characters' heads.

And my prose style is more casual than formal. (Plus I like a little purple now and then.)

Cheers, Greg.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I love adverbs and speech descriptors. I use ellipses for time elapses.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I used to use a ton of ellipses. Then one day a copy editor on one of my books said I overused them "to the max." Of course I was indignant. I'd been using them for several books and no one ever complained before. I knew what I was doing. (All this in my own head. He hadn't changed them, so why get in a fight?)

But I thought about it and eventually decided he was probably right. So now I overuse dashes instead.

I do use saidisms (dialogue attributors that aren't said -- also called saidbookisms), but try not to use too many. Some people would say never use them, but I don't care.

And I love adverbs, so there!

 

[AnyaKimlin]

My ellipses aren't in dialogue more like this for time periods:

This was not the reaction I had expected from him. Our father encouraged us to stand up for what we believed in and I had expected his understanding...

…eventually one of his hands was given a temporary reprieve from tapping its rhythm and he indicated the chair in front of his desk.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

I'm always doing comma splices instead of a semi-colon or two complete sentences. I don't think it's that big of a rule to break.

 

[Azzagorn]

I'm guilty of comma splicing. But then so are many people.

 

[Hex]

I try not to break too many rule rules, but I'll flirt with the not-really-rules.

I have been a bit more relaxed recently about non-said dialogue tags.

I like repetition, and of course my greatest sin (of those I am aware of): andless lists (I only do them to annoy...).

 

[Mouse]

There are no rules, only guidelines...

I do all of the above. Except Greg's weird formatting thing. I also use passive when I feel like it.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I try not to break too many rule rules, but I'll flirt with the not-really-rules.

I have been a bit more relaxed recently about non-said dialogue tags.

I like repetition, and of course my greatest sin (of those I am aware of): andless lists (I only do them to annoy...).

Umm the more people post the more I add. I claim all of the above. Even Chrisp claims and less lists so they cannot be wrong.

And I do passive like Mouse.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Hmm, interesting and good thread, Springs. I'm encouraged by the responses so far.

I wanted to ask - as an add-on to the question - if your rule-breaking is brought up in critiques? If it is how do you respond? Sometimes I get mentally tied up in knots at feedback I receive; I think it's clear I've done it on purpose but it's brought up as jarring for the reader. When do you change your writing, and when do you choose to keep it as is? I'm asking that because I often feel like such a complete and utter newb at writing, I find it hard not to take every piece of advice I receive.*

As for me, I'm not sure of any rules I constantly break on purpose, but I do love to have internal thoughts italicised and in their own paragraph. But these are usually only a sentence - and more often than not, a short one at that.

I'm happy to thrown in the odd adverb or dialogue attribution where necessary.

pH
* I understand the general response will be if you meant to do it, keep it! but ...

 

[Hex]

If you still like it, knowing it bugs other people, keep it. But be aware that it mightn't be exactly what people are picking on that doesn't work -- it might be something else in the excerpt that's bothering them.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I wanted to ask - as an add-on to the question - if your rule-breaking is brought up in critiques?

The ing was brought up in my 7k crit, which is actually what brought this thread to mind.

If it is how do you respond?

I thank the critter very much because actually, technically, they're right. And then I assess whether or not the rule-breaking is intrusive and if I'm still happy I don't change it.

Sometimes I get mentally tied up in knots at feedback I receive; I think it's clear I've done it on purpose but it's brought up as jarring for the reader. When do you change your writing, and when do you choose to keep it as is? I'm asking that because I often feel like such a complete and utter newb at writing, I find it hard not to take every piece of advice I receive.*

I think some of this comes from confidence. I used to change everything people said. Now, I think more carefully about it all. As an eg Alchemist and I regularly crit each other's work. He regularly suggests my commas are rather enthusiastically used, I often think his version lacks a pause where I want one. So, I change the ones I agree with and ignore those that I don't, and - crucially - this is exactly what Alchemist expects me to do, as I expect him to ignore my comments that don't match what he wants to achieve*.

Another eg my agent suggested a change to a central character that I wasn't sure about, but I tried it and it worked. So sometimes trying the change to see if it works is right.

*with the proviso, of course, that I'm always right.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

If I don't agree I say thank you but ignore it.

At my writer's group recently I wrote a short for a speech competition it was called Waltzing Matilda about a cross dressing barrister at a crime scene. In it there were some repetitive lines, punctuated to the rhythm of a waltz. The group all objected to it but I kept it in. The competition judges all raved about the rhythm of the story and the repetition. It netted second place because of the writing. (There was no way my RP slightly scouse accent was competing with the beautiful lyrical, deep throated Highland granny that won).

Sometimes you just know it works.

 

[Ursa major]

There's the first episode of a version of Dante's The Divine Comedy on Radio Four this afternoon. I'll be surprised if there's no mention (in one of the episodes) of the Circle of Hell to which comma-splicers are sent....

 

[chrispenycate]

If I want to break rules, I make sure I understand first why the rule has come into existence, and why it doesn't apply to me in this particular situation. After all, most of them are not rules as such, but guidelines, generally worked out for situations that may not apply in a particular case.

Relative to my school days I start sentences with conjunctions and close them with prepositions, both of which were anathema at that period, but stop short of splitting infinitives.

The passive voice and adverbs were each invented to a need. They can be overused, but what can't, and I feel no guilt for them. And I don't consider my word choice purple; it's just how I talk/think.

And I know no rule, as such against my chief crime, deviating from the plot on hand with vast, frequently nested parenthetical interventions, which I attempt to eliminate on editing.

And when I point out, generally in critiques, comma splices or lack of pauses, I might be a little – decisive, but I don't expect, don't want people to think 'oh, the oracle has spoken, I will change'; I just want to tell people where they are making a choice.

 

[Erin99]

Since this thread directly relates to my crit of the 7k, I feel I should come on and give my view. (I didn't realise the -ings were a conscious choice. It's so hard to know, when critting. I point things out because that's my job, and I know the author will probably ignore most of them if needed.)

Anyway! Here I go, to explain my reasoning in the hopes of converting all you -ing abusers (it's worth a try ). I think the key here is what's fine to break as a matter of style and voice, and what's just wrong, although yes, that's a hard one to decide in some cases. If you do something and in context it works (and readers, who are a lot less picky than writers, don't mind it), I think it's fine. But if you do something, i.e., have actions that can't happen together D yes, I was one of those that pulled her up ), imo it's not a case of "but the flow works better", because you're actually describing things that physically can't happen at once. To me, that's just wrong. It's not style or guideline-breaking. Break something that is correct, not something incorrect.

And there are other ways of breaking up rhythm...

That's just my opinion, anyway, and it's probably not shared by most. I still hope some may have converted, though! Don't abuse your ings - they're your continuing friends!!!


As for my bad habits... hah! I have a few. But I write what I'm happiest doing, so...

I comma-splice if it works (sorry, Ursa! Does Comma-Splice Hell have cats? Commas are like curled-up cats.), I love passive used in the right way, I'm not too against splitting infinitives, I love semicolons and dashes and ellipses (too much, yes; they'll be pruned on the final edit), and I am quite happy to break the "rule" I know some people adhere strongly to, of no slipping out of character voice, if I think it works best. A story is written by someone, after all, as we all know, and written in the best way possible, so why not add something if it makes the work better? I'd hate to be limited in what I could write, simply because the POV character wouldn't describe something in a nice way. If sunlight is causing rainbows to flare on the surface of a pond, I don't want to be stuck writing bland descriptions that don't evoke as much as being more poetic could (for me, anyway; that's just how I find it). It doesn't mean I start describing things my character couldn't know, it just means I'm more liberal with my vocabulary when the story allows me to. That's why I love formal narration.

I'm description heavy in my early drafts, though, so that's another place I have to prune.

And I don't tend to use adverbs as much as adjectives, but I'm not against them. IIRC, one short I wrote used adverbs quite a bit, because it just felt right. I can't really explain my logic.

I'm sure there are plenty other guidelines I break when I have to, but right now I can't think of them cos my brain's mush. Oh! I love fragments. There we go. They're great in action scenes or thoughts.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I was fine with being pulled up on it, btw, and you weren't alone. i agree that the action is wrong with the -ing but I honestly think that's a writer thing, and the average reader doesn't stop and say, hang about, that ing was continuous, how's she do that, then? certainly, I see it in published stuff and don't blink. I also find lots of ed-s fragmentary, sometimes,so flow comes into play. But I'm happy for it to be pointed out so I can review it.

On others' crimes - comma splices, i use rarely, but I have no major objection in others' work.

Passive voice, I have no probs with and probably overuse a little myself.

Switching out of the character voice... That one I don't mind in an omni book but would hate in a book that goes from close to omni and back again. But I'm a bit obsessive about character voices and try to adhere to them strictly. For a character to have a voice, lose it to notice something, and then gain it again would, I think, be impossible for me to read. I also struggle when all characters have the same voice ie the author's. (I think Mouse is the only other person I know who's so bothered about the characters' voice. Either that, or I've talked to her more about it.)

 

[Erin99]

It was worth a try.

And heh, I DO like the -ed versions in my work, yes! They can look quite nice.

Oh! Which remids me of another thing I do, Hex's "andless lists". They can be great for flow and pace.

And yes, we're in agreement about the "omni interrupting close POV". If a writer started in a very - to use your word - POV-ey style and then switched to grand descriptions of the background, it would feel weird. What I enjoy (and write) is close third but told through a formal narrator. So actions, scenery, etc., is prettified in places, and yet I also have character thoughts, lively characters, and I only follow one character at a time.

Saying that, I'm happy to break the rule at the start and end of scenes/chapters, because a) that's accepted and acceptable, and b) I like starting zoomed out, with a nice world/place description, so I can then zoom in on a character...

Switching out of the character voice... That one I don't mind in an omni book but would hate in a book that goes from close to omni and back again. But I'm a bit obsessive about character voices and try to adhere to them strictly. For a character to have a voice, lose it to notice something, and then gain it again would, I think, be impossible for me to read. I also struggle when all characters have the same voice ie the author's. (I think Mouse is the only other person I know who's so bothered about the characters' voice. Either that, or I've talked to her more about it.)

YES! Very much so. I hate books where everyone sounds the same. There's nothing better than a world filled with colourful, memorabe characters who fit in with their surroundings and upbringing and don't all sound incongruously modern.


Oops. KJust noticed my horrendous spelling. Gonna have to go rest asap.

 

[tinkerdan]

I'm totally confuse...are there RULES?!