Whose non-existence would have changed history the most?

[Aun Doorback]

Without Sir William Wallace, and his brutal murder, would Robert the Bruce have seized the vacant Scottish throne ?

Without John Balliol, would the Wars of Independence have happened ?

Without David I (the youngest of six bothers) - Neither Bruce nor Balliol would've existed, but what would've happened to the Scottish crown ?

Ah but If Margaret, the maid of Norway, not perished? What then?

 

[Aquilonian]

So could we say that it was actually a 'good thing' ...that Hitler did exist to make those errors of judgement, as a more competent Nazi leader could have actually won the war ... and that's why no time travellers would want to go back and remove them.

you seem to assume that time travellers are "good people!"

Nazi time travellers might well go back and try to kill Hitler during WW1.

Anti-Nazi time travellers might go back in order to protect him. Perhaps they did? He must have led a "charmed life" during WW1, surviving the war despite sufficent reckless courage to win him two iron crosses, stuck in hospital at the psychologically devastating moment of the German surrender (when he might have killed himself otherwise), and surviving the assassination attempt due to being shielded from the bomb by a table.

 

[Aun Doorback]

you seem to assume that time travellers are "good people!"

Nazi time travellers might well go back and try to kill Hitler during WW1.

Anti-Nazi time travellers might go back in order to protect him. Perhaps they did? He must have led a "charmed life" during WW1, surviving the war despite sufficent reckless courage to win him two iron crosses, stuck in hospital at the psychologically devastating moment of the German surrender (when he might have killed himself otherwise), and surviving the assassination attempt due to being shielded from the bomb by a table.

A valid first point and one which I cannot argue against, because I was viewing it from the perspective of the good time traveller. Your second point follows that train of thought, but with some insider knowledge perhaps??

 

[JoanDrake]

On religious chaps existing or not: I'm pretty confident Jesus did exist (it's the Christ aspect that's more debatable).

My understanding has always been that there's as much evidence of his existence as there is of several figures we do accept. However, that is also to say there are a lot of figures we accept for which there is little real evidence. Jesus was a 'wonder worker' and at that time, such were all over the Roman Empire and particularly popular in the Middle East.

The Germans didn't provoke the US into entering the war - the US declared war on Germany as a result of the Pearl Harbor. So if the Japanese and Germans had not signed the Axis Agreement, in theory the US would have declared war on Japan and not Germany.

As for 'the wrong time of the year', Barbarossa was delayed by about 6 weeks due to the Germans having to sort out the Balkans to aid Italy; so if they had attacked Russia in mid-April '41, they might have had time to take Moscow before the winter set in.

No offense but I must directly contradict that. We declared war on Japan only and it is doubtful that Congress would have declared war on Germany too if Germany had not declared war on us on December 10. Roosevelt didn't ask for a declaration of war on Germany, and the Tripartite Axis Pact only obligated the parties to go to war if another member was attacked. Many people did think Hitler would go to war under any circumstances if Japan did, but it was by no means an assured thing

 

[Gramm838]

No offense but I must directly contradict that. We declared war on Japan only and it is doubtful that Congress would have declared war on Germany too if Germany had not declared war on us on December 10. Roosevelt didn't ask for a declaration of war on Germany, and the Tripartite Axis Pact only obligated the parties to go to war if another member was attacked. Many people did think Hitler would go to war under any circumstances if Japan did, but it was by no means an assured thing

Yes I concede you're right, but still war between Germany and the US was not the result of any outright military action by one side against the other (US ships being torpedoed didn't provoke a declaration of war)

 

[The Ace]

Ah but If Margaret, the maid of Norway, not perished? What then?

Margaret's claim to the throne was based on her descent from David I - if Malcolm III hadn't married Margaret the Atheling (his second wife), or if he hadn't existed in the first place to kill Macbeth and Lulach and regain his father's throne.....

 

[dekket]

Abraham, if we are talking about religious figures. If he had never existed, would we have the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity)?

 

[Gramm838]

Abraham, if we are talking about religious figures. If he had EVER existed, would we have the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity)?

Fixed that for you

 

[Aquilonian]

Abraham, if we are talking about religious figures. If he had never existed, would we have the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity)?

Yes, because he probably did not exist but we still have those religions. Same goes for Moses. The Bible only starts to become historical about halfway through the Books of Kings and Books of Chronicles, with guys like Ahab and Omri.

King Josiah is another matter- as it was he who created the Jewish religion as we know it, ie monotheistic and based on a set of laws regulating behaviour in great detail. Like most religious reformers he claimed to be "restoring" Judaism to its original purity, but there's no evidence that more ancient Judaism had ever resembled the type of religion that he enforced.

Josiah seems to have got a huge boost because when Jerusalem was besieged by the Assyrians in his reign, an epidemic broke out in the Assyrian camp and killed so many that they had to quit the seige. This was interpreted as a mark of God's favour to Josiah's policies.

Of course epidemics were very common among large armies encamped in areas with poor water supply.

 

[rwspangler]

If we're going modern, it must be Hitler. The whole latter half of the 20th century and 21st to date is defined by what he did.

I have to agree. Without Hitler and his crazy, egotistical war, many things would have been different. The largest one being the isolationist USA and our technological upgrades. We would not have taken on the Manhattan project, space travel or jets. Radar, a lot of aircraft design and rocket tech came from England (transferred just prior to our entry) and Germany (after the war).

Even better, consider which country would be dominate if Hitler had taken a break just before taking France and if he had kept the friendship with Russia. Now THAT would make for a huge alternate history. Germany with jets, bombs, space travel.......

IMHO

 

[BAYLOR]

Imagine if Winston Churchill had never become prime minister ? He committed the UK to fighting Nazi Germany . Without him, Hitler ends up controlling all of Europe and probably Northern Africa as well.

 

[Gramm838]

Maybe Gavril Princip? If he was not around to kill Archduke Ferdinand, western Europe MAY not have gone to war, and there MAY not have been a Russian revolution, and no Versailles treaty so therefore no Hitler; or

John Logie Baird...his invention of TV has altered the way the world appears.

(I wonder if, when he first got it to work, he looked at the picture and though "dammit, there nothing worth watching on tonight")

 

[BAYLOR]

Maybe Gavril Princip? If he was not around to kill Archduke Ferdinand, western Europe MAY not have gone to war, and there MAY not have been a Russian revolution, and no Versailles treaty so therefore no Hitler; or

John Logie Baird...his invention of TV has altered the way the world appears.

(I wonder if, when he first got it to work, he looked at the picture and though "dammit, there nothing worth watching on tonight")

Even If Archduke Ferdinand had lived, World war I would happened anyways. It might postponed things for a few years, but sooner or later another crises would have occurred which would have set things off.

 

[paranoid marvin]

I have to agree. Without Hitler and his crazy, egotistical war, many things would have been different. The largest one being the isolationist USA and our technological upgrades. We would not have taken on the Manhattan project, space travel or jets. Radar, a lot of aircraft design and rocket tech came from England (transferred just prior to our entry) and Germany (after the war).

Even better, consider which country would be dominate if Hitler had taken a break just before taking France and if he had kept the friendship with Russia. Now THAT would make for a huge alternate history. Germany with jets, bombs, space travel.......

IMHO

There's no way that Stalin would never have gone to war with Germany.In my opinion Hitler's main reason for invading Russia was jump Stalin before Stalin jumped him. If the Germans had won WWII, then the chances are that WWIII would have annihilated most of the USSR and Europe.

And if somehow the Germans won and made peace/beat the US and USSR then yes there would have been massive step forwards with space technology; no expense would have been spared to explore space. The cost in human lives would have been immense though.

 

[Vertigo]

I've been thinking about this and I'm not so sure it 'works.' When talking about people like Genghis Khan, Alexander, Hitler, Stalin or even the like of Jesus or Mohammed so long as you don't have religious beliefs, then you need to be careful about how much is down to the person and how much down to the times. I have heard it said, for example, that Hitler was the inevitable result of Versailles. In other words if Hitler hadn't existed would someone else have filled his place? Or if Alexander hadn't existed some other son probably would have and maybe the same circumstances would have driven that other son to similar outcomes?

I'm no historian, but it's just a thought.

 

[BAYLOR]

There's no way that Stalin would never have gone to war with Germany.In my opinion Hitler's main reason for invading Russia was jump Stalin before Stalin jumped him. If the Germans had won WWII, then the chances are that WWIII would have annihilated most of the USSR and Europe.

And if somehow the Germans won and made peace/beat the US and USSR then yes there would have been massive step forwards with space technology; no expense would have been spared to explore space. The cost in human lives would have been immense though.

If Hitler's invasion of Russia hadn't been delayed and had he captured the Russian oil fields , It's possible that he could have beaten the Russians.

 

[Vertigo]

And with that oil there's every chance he might of beaten the allies...

 

[BAYLOR]

And with that oil there's every chance he might of beaten the allies...

I think after gobbling large chunks up Russia, He's stretched pretty thin. It's less likely that he would have been able to beat the US or The UK. But with Europe completely under his thumb and with Russia out of action. The Invasion of Normandy doesn't happen because now he has the means and the resource to hold on to his gains. One possibility, the war ends in a stalemate, We either get few years of peace with 3 world War or a cold war with Germany

 

[Vertigo]

Ah sorry, yes I meant in Europe only.

 

[BAYLOR]

Ah sorry, yes I meant in Europe only.

I went a bit overboard.