Crackpot theory on Azor Ahai/Lightbringer

[joshrackley]

While reading in another forum on Rhaegar's motivations in eloping with Lyanna, I was thinking over the entire situation and came up with a crackpot theory that I would like to put to this forum: what if Rhaegar actually was Azor Ahai?

Don't worry, I'm not suggesting that all hope is lost since he's dead and I'm certainly not suggesting that he's still alive. But I'm looking at it more from the standpoint of the forging of Lightbringer and Nyssa Nyssa. It's been proposed that Lightbringer isn't an actual sword, that it's dragons, that's it's Valyrian Steel, that it's the Night's Watch, etc. But what if Lightbringer is a person and that person is Jon Snow.

Parts of this theory boarder on crude and vulgar (ok, maybe not so much "boarder" as run full speed into that territory) so I'll be delicate with this. It was necessary for Azor Ahai to thrust his sword through Nyssa Nyssa to temper the blade, killing her in the process. Rhaegar pretty much did the same thing with Lyanna, both metaphorically and literally.

I'm not saying I believe this, just putting it out there as a new crackpot theory. I haven't checked to see if this has been proposed elsewhere, it just jumped out at me and I decided to share it. I know how much we all like to hear some good crackpottery from time to time. So, what do you think?

 

[Tywin]

Parts of this theory boarder on crude and vulgar (ok, maybe not so much "boarder" as run full speed into that territory) so I'll be delicate with this. It was necessary for Azor Ahai to thrust his sword through Nyssa Nyssa to temper the blade, killing her in the process. Rhaegar pretty much did the same thing with Lyanna, both metaphorically and literally.

I like the theory in that Jon Snow is actually Lightbringer. As the LC of the Night's Watch, this also nests nicely within the concept that the entire Night's Watch is Lightbringer ("I am the sword in the darkness...").

One possible point, back to the crude-ness, is that Azor Ahai thrust "Lightbringer" through Nissa Nissa, whereas Rhaegar thrust his penis into Lyanna. In the one case Lightbringer emerges as a more strongly tempered sword, in the other case it is no longer his penis, but a person.

I guess metaphically this still makes sense as it could be said that his 'seed' was what he put in her, and that Jon Snow is still that same seed, just all grown up. I think that relates pretty well with the medieval idea of how impregnation works too.

 

[Boaz]

josh, We don't have all the necessary information regarding the first Azor Ahai nor do we know much concerning the second AA. But I assume that the original story and the prophecy both revolve around the wielder of the sword and not the sword itself. So if AA Reborn is dead, then how can Lightbringer be of use against The Other?

If Jon is Lightbringer, then we still need a AAR. Who could wield Jon against The Other? Stannis and Dany seem like the best choices. Now Jon must be tempered... Who will Stannis slay to temper his sword? Selyse? He does not really love her. Shireen? If AAR is Dany, then who will she kill to temper Jon? Jorah? BFS? Daario? Missandei?

I don't hate this theory, josh. But I do like Dany=AAR and Dragons=Lightbringer much better. I also like how AAR dovetails with TPTWP with Dany fulfilling both.

I do love theories. Don't stop coming up with new ones nor with making connections in the story.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Unusually in this case, I disagree with Boaz. I actually think that this theory works very very well.

Azor Ahai made 2 swords before he was able to make Lightbringer, which he was only able to do by killing the woman he loved (Nissa Nissa)

Rhaegar Targaryan made 2 children before he finally made Jon, killing the woman he loved (Lyanna Stark). Also, if you assume or believe that the current Aegon is a phoney, then both of his first attemts were "Shattered".

This could possibly make jon both Lightbringer AND the prince that was promised. Like Boaz said, we don't know much about the original AA, but if you read the legend of Azor Ahai, there is much more discussion about the sword itself than there is about the man. The end of the legend, as it is transcribed on a Wiki of Ice and Fire is

" He drove his sword into her living heart, her soul combining with the steel of the sword, creating Lightbringer"

It doesn't say anything about AA wielding the sword. It does say that AA was chosen to fight against the darkness and to fight the darkness he needed to forge a Sword. AA might have been just a really good blacksmith who was chosen to create the sword of heroes. which, if you stranlate that to fit this theory, Rhaegar was just a really handsome and strong man who was chosen to make little Jon.

 

[Boaz]

Rhaegar Targaryan made 2 children before he finally made Jon, killing the woman he loved (Lyanna Stark). Also, if you assume or believe that the current Aegon is a phoney, then both of his first attemts were "Shattered".

I like this reasoning a lot! I dunno that GRRM is headed that way, but those two sentences takes an in interesting idea and turns it into a very plausible theory!

Hurry up and disagree with me more! I don't have to be right... just vocal.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I can't say that I am fully behind this theory, I just really like the idea that Lightbringer is a person, not a sword. there also seems to be a few interesting parralells between Jon and Lightbringer (if you believe that R+L=J). And Rhaegar actually thought he fit the prophecy of AAR, and now everyone believes he was wrong because he is dead, but what if that doesn't matter, because it is not the man, but the sword, that is important.

 

[joshrackley]

Forgot to mention the "two previous attempts" part of the theory. I hadn't thought about the implications to Aegon's authenticity, but it especially fits with the deaths of Aegon and Rhaella since their heads were "dashed upon the wall" literally shattering them. Again, I don't necessarily believe this theory myself -- I had originally started it as a true crackpot theory, but the more I thought about it there did seem to be some backing. I'll have to go back and get all the nuances of the prophecy/tale of AA and Lightbringer and keep them in mind on my next read through.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Even if this new Aegon IS legit, there is still time for him to be "Shattered", possibly while being thrust through the heart of a Lion (Lannister)

 

[Boaz]

thrust through the heart of a Lion (Lannister)

I've never made that connection before!

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

the only problem is, there are not many Lannisters left.

 

[Boaz]

Lannisters are not the only ones.

Well, let's look at the great houses (Arryn, Baratheon, Lannister, Martell, Stark, Tully, and Tyrell), the old dynasty (Targaryen), and the three other major players (Bolton, Frey, and Greyjoy) ever since Jaime defenestrated Bran:

...Three Starks have died and four others have been presumed or assumed dead or lost.

...Two Lannisters have died, three have been gravely wounded, and one has disappeared.

...Three Baratheons (all kings) have died, one was critically wounded and one has been lost in a blizzard. I'm not even mentioning how many Baratheon bastards have been murdered.

...One Greyjoy has been assassinated and one has been tortured beyond imagination.

...Many Freys have been killed in battle, in ambush, and by treachery.

....One Tyrell has been critically injured.

...Two Martells are dead and at least five Martell bastards have been imprisoned.

...One Tully is dead, one is fled, and the other is imprisoned and soon to be executed.

...One Targaryen is dead, one is lost, and one is in the thick of an invasion.

...One Arryn dead and one a sickly hostage.

...All Boltons alive. In fact, they recently added one to their number.

I realize that I'm waaaaaay off topic. But the repercussions from Jaime's action are destroying the major houses.

Now as for AAR... if Rhaegar was AAR, then shouldn't he have three attempts to forge Lightbringer? The first was Rhaenys. The second was Aegon. The third is... Jon. Will Jon live in Ghost? Do the red eyes of Ghost now signify Jon's tempering into an instrument of fire?

Aemon and Rhaegar erred on the translation of "prince." Have others also made errors in translation? Melisandre keeps talking of a sword, but what if the translation should actually be "weapon" or "implement"?

I kind of like the idea of a living weapon, i.e. Jon. But I like the idea of A+L=J much more than R=L=J.

I'm better at observations than connections. And I'm obviously grasping at straws by mentioning the red eyes. So someone needs to figure out AAR...

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

leave it to the bloody Boltons to prosper in war.

Also, Many Freys have died, but they can stand to lose some more.

 

[Boaz]

Also, Many Freys have died, but they can stand to lose some more.

Walder told Cagelyn something like, "I can match your two sons to one of yours and still come out on top." And Catelyn told Robb that Hoster told her something to the effect, "Walder Frey is the only lord of the Seven Kingdoms who can field an army from his breeches."

 

[Tywin]

Walder told Cagelyn something like, "I can match your two sons to one of yours and still come out on top."

Fortunately for us, Walder will never end up with two to one odds.

I foresee odds that look more like "all of his sons for the one of hers"

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Fortunately for us, Walder will never end up with two to one odds.

I foresee odds that look more like "all of his sons for the one of hers"

we can only hope.

We can also hope that Walder outlives all of his children, at least, all of his male children.

 

[Tywin]

we can only hope.

We can also hope that Walder outlives all of his children, at least, all of his male children.

Hmmm... that's a viscious little turn there. Are we saying that we want his female children to end up producing children without the Frey name?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Not really, it's just, with SOOO many children and grand children and great grandchildren, it is too much to hope for that Walder lives to see his whole family line eradicated, but it would satisfy me to have him at least suffer through watching all of his son's die as a result of his treachery. I don't think he has a heart or is capable of remorse, but he might come close.

 

[Tywin]

I meant viscious along the lines of his daughters all getting impregnated and producing offspring for other houses, bastards, rape-children, etc.

 

[Ursa major]

I'm not one for all this sins-of-the-father nonsense. The painful deaths of Lord Frey and Lord Bolton would be enough for me. (Flaying one and leaving the other more than a little frayed seems appropriate for part of the process.)

 

[Tywin]

I'm not one for all this sins-of-the-father nonsense. The painful deaths of Lord Frey and Lord Bolton would be enough for me. (Flaying one and leaving the other more than a little frayed seems appropriate for part of the process.)

I would prefer to see more blood.

Vengeance may seem like a personal matter, but for the large dynastic families portrayed in ASOIAF, I believe that the example set by the reaction is much more important. As in, if the King in the North is murdered in cold blood by the Freys and Boltons, then when the Starks rise back up they will make an example painful enough to discourage future generations from trying the same.

I'm just speculating on what King Rickon (King Jon? King Bran? Queen Sansa? one of them) will do when the north is set back in order, but I think that GRRM has left us some clues that the Starks throughout history have had a marked mean streak.