Selective 'historical accuracy' in fantasy

[allmywires]

I think the fact of hope - in a war there's a winner, a king on the throne etc - is why disease and poverty tends to be glanced over in fantasy. People have praised GRRM for killing his darlings and having no remorse, but there's always a sense of injustice even in the most banal deaths (RENLY!!). If he'd killed someone from disease, where is the reward for the reader? There's no-one to blame. That's grim.

Hex, at the moment I'm reading a lot around North Korea and their camp system. I wonder if you've heard of Escape from Camp 14? It's a nonfiction account of a North Korean who was born in a concentration camp. I haven't read it yet, but it's on my list after The Aquariums of Pyongyang, which is also a very interesting book but like you mentioned, the author had some experience of the outside world.

 

[Anne Lyle]

Writers are readers, too, and many of us are bound to take a theme of Medieval Europe as the default to work within. One has to ask why the average quality writer would take a lot of time researching a different era or geographical area when her or she grew up on dragons and castles and forests and continues to read this kind of stuff?

In my case, there's definitely a "write what you know" aspect to this - I grew up in Nottinghamshire, in what was once the middle of Sherwood Forest, and hence surrounded by daily reminders of our medieval legends. Add in school trips to castles and ruined abbeys, and more recent visits to the replica of Shakespeare's Globe... If I wanted to write about a non-European culture, it would require a hell of a lot more research!

 

[Toby Frost]

I heard somewhere (reliable start, I know) that the number of holidays a medieval farmer would have had was a lot more than we get now. Hearsay, but judging by the number of days off some Catholic countries have, it may be true.

I'd also add that humans have a tendency to make jokes, even if they are very sour ones. I read a memoir recently about the aftermath of the battle of Kohima in WW2, which was about as savage as it got, in which the narrator and his friend continuously made fun of each other and squabbled over petty things. What they didn't do was become "grim" and do nothing except scowl and act tough (they didn't really need to). I think this is one of the reasons why the soldiers in, say, Aliens are convincing, and why a lot of space soldiers (the elite ones especially) aren't.

 

[Brian G Turner]

However, the awfulness of the concentration camps was not a normality --those within them knew that life was not actually like this. Almost everyone had had some years outside.

This is where religion steps in.

The early Middle Ages was absolutely dominated by religion. It seems almost everything about daily life involved something to do with the church. That sort of mentality I think is very difficult to translate into a fantasy novel, a) because you must have a realistic and detailed religion of incredible complexity, which will inevitably become modeled on something like the Roman Catholic Chruch, and b) unless you want your fantasy novel to be about this church, the story is in danger of being crushed by it.

Hence IMO the best period for inspiration is the late Mediaeval period (I've actually started researching Elizabethan and Renaissance daily living precisely because of this issue).

However - a story is fundamentally supposed to be about one of more people's emotional journey to over come adversity. It doesn't matter if the background is grim, or if there's a deadly plague - it's simply adversity - the story is in that character's reaction, not the grimness around - because frankly you can find grimness in any cultural, any time, and a focus on that would not be realistic.

(Also my apologies if I sometimes sound dismissive of other people's tastes - it's not so much trying to dismiss them as much as a general focus and hunger for realism in genre fiction that is not yet satisfied. Ironically, I am aware in my own writing that no matter my aspirations, the story will always limit how much realistic context you can provide, and fantasy as a genre inevitably means having to step away from realism to a degree. Heck, that's a definition of fiction in general).

And on the subject of fantasy and realism, I just watched this video dismissing the use of double-bladed axes in fantasy, which I thought was quite insightful and humorous.

 

[elvet]

I've read both threads on this topic and I can say that the comments are very thoughtful and well written, but they are going over my head a bit.
I love gritty medieval fantasy. I also like to watch documentaries on how life was back in the day. I don't expect the books I read to be historically accurate, perhaps I don't know enough about it for it to be jarring when an inconsistency occurs. Fantasy is fantasy for me. If a book has uncomfortable scenes in it, I don't read them. If the tone of the book is too dismal (without balance) I stop reading. My favorite authors include Mark Lawrence, Steven Erikson, Joe Abercrombie, and Martin. I actually prefer the grimdark to the more epic hero based traditional books I've enjoyed.

 

[Southern Geologist]

In my case, there's definitely a "write what you know" aspect to this - I grew up in Nottinghamshire, in what was once the middle of Sherwood Forest, and hence surrounded by daily reminders of our medieval legends. Add in school trips to castles and ruined abbeys, and more recent visits to the replica of Shakespeare's Globe...

That sounds wonderful. I think there is an aspect of 'write what you know' for fantasy writers living in America, too, because we tend to be raised on European fairy tales and--for those of who start reading fantasy as kids, at least--lots of stuff in a Medieval setting. I remember going through used book stores as a kid, hitting the fantasy section and looking for anything with 'dragon' in the title. Ah, the things we did before the internet....

 

[River Boy]

We write fantasy; we can make our own rules. Obviously one cannot immediately discard social constructs and historical trends, but why do authors so often stick to the one 'tried and tested' model? What would be so wrong about a fantastical society with the morals and laws of Ancient Greece, say - while I'm sure they exist, why is it that the mediaeval fantasy tends to trump them all? Surely it's not just the Tolkien factor.

Ant.

It's an interesting argument, though I'm curious what you mean by 'the Tolkien factor'?

Could it be that writers are always looking to find examples of themselves - or a heroic version of themselves - in whatever time they happen to be writing of and sometimes this conflicts with whatever time is being depicted.

If writing a Viking saga, for example, they're not noted for being sensitive souls, but there must have been all different types of Vikings that didn't adhere to their cultural norm/stereotype, and yet managed to exist within it. For example, to foreigners Hugh Grant might seem like the stereotypical Englishman, but I've not met many Englishman that similar to him.

In this sense I'm not against writers pursuing whatever sentiments they like in their stories - as you could just as easily say something more stereotypical is going on next door - although I am in favour of writers respecting what I consider to be the moral lessons of the time and the depiction of any profound events.

(As an example, I was pissed off that the character of Uncas - in generational terms the last of the Mohicans - was overlooked in the film version in favour of the more American-like hero Hawkeye, when in the book both characters are of equal importance.)

 

[Nerds_feather]

If writing a Viking saga, for example, they're not noted for being sensitive souls, but there must have been all different types of Vikings that didn't adhere to their cultural norm/stereotype, and yet managed to exist within it. \

I've read nearly all the Viking sagas. They are very grimdark, but not at all in the way grimdark fantasy is. There are almost no rapes depicted, for one thing. And most violence occurs in the context of familial blood feuds (though there are some epic battles as well). And yes, there were many kinds of vikings. Being a poet or lawyer was considered as prestigious as being a warrior. There are lots of lengthy legal battles depicted in the sagas.

 

[Toby Frost]

One of the things that seems to make a story grim, beside the literal squalor of the setting, is the inability of the characters to change anything. The grimness of the setting is often supported by the hopelessness of the characters and their inability to change their fate (or more likely the author's manouverings to keep them in the same place). This is easy to sympathise with if you spend most of your life, like me, in an office working for a big company, but I suspect that in past ages one could move from a nobody to a virtual king if the world was in sufficient turmoil (take Cromwell, for instance).

Actually, history is full of individuals whose effect on history is vast. Of course there are national leaders like Churchill or Napoleon, but then there are other examples. You have military adventurers like Garibaldi, Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc or the conquistadors, or religious types such as Martin Luther or perhaps Gandhi. In times of upheaval, someone lucky, devious or bold enough could probably rise quite high - which makes for an interesting story.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

That sounds wonderful. I think there is an aspect of 'write what you know' for fantasy writers living in America, too,

Have you noticed that there are currently a number of steampunkish (but not exactly steampunk) fantasy novels set in the American west? They tend to be fun instead of deep or meaningful, but at the same time they are meaningful, because no matter how lightly they may treat the subject, they reflect something of the American experience and the pioneer spirit.

One thing I enjoy is when there is something that fits in with stories handed down in my family. (Probably your family, too, because we're such a melting pot of American folklore and traditions here.) It makes it all very personal. And it's nice to see our own history and culture represented in fantasy. Not that there weren't any books like that before, but there seems to be a growing sub-genre right now.

And yes, there were many kinds of vikings. Being a poet or lawyer was considered as prestigious as being a warrior. There are lots of lengthy legal battles depicted in the sagas.

And so many of them were farmers and merchants who only went raiding during a bad year (or if they were younger sons and had no land), or they were Norse settlers who took other lands by force because they had outgrown their own agricultural resources. Once they had the land, they tended to do what settlers always do. Farm, build villages, defend their (recently stolen) lands.

If he'd killed someone from disease, where is the reward for the reader? There's no-one to blame. That's grim.

Which would make it absolutely no fun to read about.

The early Middle Ages was absolutely dominated by religion. It seems almost everything about daily life involved something to do with the church. That sort of mentality I think is very difficult to translate into a fantasy novel, a) because you must have a realistic and detailed religion of incredible complexity, which will inevitably become modeled on something like the Roman Catholic Chruch, and b) unless you want your fantasy novel to be about this church, the story is in danger of being crushed by it.

And leaving that part entirely out of an epic fantasy makes the setting absolutely not representative of the medieval period.

In Kate Elliott's Crown of Stars series a lot of the story centers around her version of the Catholic Church -- feminist in many ways, but also very accurate in terms of monastic life and the tension between the established church and what it considered heretical doctrines. Lots of blood and war, too, for those that like that sort of thing, and many, many fantasy elements, but I think it takes a broader view of the early medieval period.

Actually, history is full of individuals whose effect on history is vast. Of course there are national leaders like Churchill or Napoleon, but then there are other examples. You have military adventurers like Garibaldi, Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc or the conquistadors, or religious types such as Martin Luther or perhaps Gandhi. In times of upheaval, someone lucky, devious or bold enough could probably rise quite high - which makes for an interesting story.

Very true! Individuals can change the course of history, sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a very bad way. Heroes in literature who accomplish great things are no more improbable then murderers and oppressors.

And Hex, I love the Le Guin quote!



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[Nerds_feather]

And so many of them were farmers and merchants who only went raiding during a bad year (or if they were younger sons and had no land), or they were Norse settlers who took other lands by force because they had outgrown their own agricultural resources. Once they had the land, they tended to do what settlers always do. Farm, build villages, defend their (recently stolen) lands.

Yup. And given that virtually everyone on Iceland worked on or owned a farm, the grimdark violence in the sagas (virtually all of which were written down in Iceland and a majority of which center on Icelanders) is often violence between farmers over farm-related things. Also missing from grimdark fantasy.

 

[Southern Geologist]

Yup. And given that virtually everyone on Iceland worked on or owned a farm, the grimdark violence in the sagas (virtually all of which were written down in Iceland and a majority of which center on Icelanders) is often violence between farmers over farm-related things. Also missing from grimdark fantasy.

Hmm...violence between farmers over farm-related things missing from grimdark fantasy. I wonder why... Perhaps, as I suggested earlier (I think I put this into words, sorry if I forgot to), what people want is grimdark romanticism, though they're not likely to admit that.

I've read both threads on this topic and I can say that the comments are very thoughtful and well written, but they are going over my head a bit.

I think the reason the comments have gone over your head is because you're not the problem.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying grimdark works or with inconsistent realism in and of itself, the big issues are this:

1. As Teresa noted, there tends to be an attitude problem among a certain segment of grimdark readers wherein they act as if anyone who prefers something less violent is immature or reading works that are intended for teenagers or children.

2. Realism is cited as the reason for grimdark even though said realism is applied quite inconsistently and the stories tend to be heavily romanticized, which makes it into quite a silly argument. I highly doubt that the creators of the movie Machete, for example, would try to justify the over-the-top violence by saying "Well, the US/Mexico border is a violent place!" They'd just acknowledge that they like over-the-top violence.

By the way, I agree with you on grimdark being better than a stereotypical hero story with black and white moral coloring, but what you're thinking of is type 1 grimdark (see Nerd_Feathers' posts in the "Essay on Prince of Thorns" thread), and what we're discussing is type 2. (Again, see that thread.)

On a related note, while it is sci-fi and we're discussing fantasy, I think that Stephen Donaldson's Gap Saga is an excellent example of grimdark done well. It contains rape and violence, but the psychological ramifications on both the rapist and the victim are examined thoroughly throughout the series, and that applies to other kinds of violence that occur, too. It's not there just for the sake of being there.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Hmm...violence between farmers over farm-related things missing from grimdark fantasy. I wonder why... Perhaps, as I suggested earlier (I think I put this into words, sorry if I forgot to), what people want is grimdark romanticism, though they're not likely to admit that.

Exactly. They want Wagner, not the stuff Wagner mangled and then set to music.

(Maybe I shouldn't say "they" since I do enjoy some grimdark fantasy books and don't, generally, wish they were primarily about farming. )

 

[Southern Geologist]

Have you noticed that there are currently a number of steampunkish (but not exactly steampunk) fantasy novels set in the American west? They tend to be fun instead of deep or meaningful, but at the same time they are meaningful, because no matter how lightly they may treat the subject, they reflect something of the American experience and the pioneer spirit.

Unfortunately, I haven't been keeping up with recent fantasy novels so I can't speak to the subject in detail, but this is interesting and isn't necessarily surprising given that there have been a few movies going in that direction. I'd be very interested if you could name a couple of novels that take that direction. It's a fascinating idea, though I do admit to feeling a bit conflicted. On one hand, I'm in favor of pretty much anything that uses a desert and/or American West as a setting and demonstrates that that kind of land has uses beyond being paved over. On the other hand, the 'pioneer spirit' often translates into the myth of the Rugged Cowboy which can be damaging. I digress, though. I hope that someone mines that vein for a more serious novel, I do feel that one can combine steampunkishness, pioneer spirit, and environmental responsibility in a novel about the west.

One thing I enjoy is when there is something that fits in with stories handed down in my family. (Probably your family, too, because we're such a melting pot of American folklore and traditions here.) It makes it all very personal. And it's nice to see our own history and culture represented in fantasy. Not that there weren't any books like that before, but there seems to be a growing sub-genre right now.

Agreed.

Exactly. They want Wagner, not the stuff Wagner mangled and then set to music.

Exactly!

(Maybe I shouldn't say "they" since I do enjoy some grimdark fantasy books and don't, generally, wish they were primarily about farming. )

Not a fan of Knut Hamsun, eh?

 

[Nerds_feather]

Mr. Nazi? No thanks

(Seriously, though, if I want exciting novels about farmers, I already have the Viking sagas.)

 

[JoanDrake]

I'm going to become the third to request Teresa gives us some titles of those Western Fantasies she mentioned. They sound like a very interesting concept.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I'll just quote from a PM I sent to SG:

Books set in the American West -- at least the ones that I've been reading tend to imply the pioneer spirit mostly in the settings and the situations of the characters ...

The only series that I can think of where the characters are actually pioneers is Frontier Magic by Patricia Wrede (and, yes, it's YA). For Western steampunk (with zombies) there's Cherie Priest's series, The Clockwork Century -- although some of the stories begin or take excursions into the southern states. One character is a nurse during the Civil War, which has lingered on for decades in Priest's world, until everyone is weary of it but they don't seem to know how to stop. Another series I enjoyed (no serious themes that I can remember, but it starts in California with a woman working the kind of folk magic that I associate with my father's people in the Ozarks -- which naturally recommends it to me) is by M. K. Hobson, I enjoyed the first book, The Native Star by far the most. The steampunk element is very slight.

The thing that I like most about books like these is that our past is (finally) not being neglected. They aren't especially historically accurate -- but then, neither are most books in a medieval setting -- except for little bits and pieces, but they don't pretend to be, and at least they go up against that selectivity that leaves our history and folklore out, as though they never existed. Fantasy can flourish in many settings.

And unlike fantasy that is relentlessly (and determinedly) dark and grim and full of hopelessness, these deal with a time in history when people genuinely believed they could make new lives and better themselves ... and sometimes did. That period in our history was sometimes violent, too, and not always pretty, and it could be full of hardship, but it was also a time when people aspired to do great things and were not inevitably crushed. We can write about these things, and it's no less true than the darker side of life.

Also, I think the change in setting is refreshing.




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[Nerds_feather]

Speaking of "historically accurate" fantasy, I remember really liking Katheryn Kurtz' Deryni series for hewing close-ish to medieval reality--especially when it came to the "church" (or whatever she called it). But it's also been well over a decade so I might not be remembering it all that well...

 

[svalbard]

Speaking of "historically accurate" fantasy, I remember really liking Katheryn Kurtz' Deryni series for hewing close-ish to medieval reality--especially when it came to the "church" (or whatever she called it). But it's also been well over a decade so I might not be remembering it all that well...

Blast from the past. I loved that series, although it is more like 20 years since I read it as a teen. Opened my eyes to what fantasy could be like. Not too sure where she stands in the hierarchy of fantasy writers, but for me she was a deal breaker in how a fantasy series could be told. Her and Katherine Kerr with her Deryni series influenced my fantasy reading until, as I call them, The Unholy Trinity, came along. Martin, Erikson and Bakker.

 

[Anne Lyle]

Speaking of "historically accurate" fantasy, I remember really liking Katheryn Kurtz' Deryni series for hewing close-ish to medieval reality--especially when it came to the "church" (or whatever she called it). But it's also been well over a decade so I might not be remembering it all that well...

I loved that series. There are a few historical gaffes - in the early books especially, her building interiors are more Jacobean than high medieval (they have glazed windows and curtains!) - but otherwise it captures the period pretty well.