Your writing is flawed

[Brian G Turner]

Something I'm becoming very frustrated with recently is seeing how some people come to chrons to self-promote their newly self-published work - and it's clear they haven't got a clue how to write.

Here's a personal mantra: my writing is flawed.

Specifically, there's something that sucks about it. I have to find these errors, consider solutions, and then correct them in proceeding drafts.

I really wish some of the people trying to gate-crash chronicles with their self promo spittle would apply that to themselves, because it's clear from the most recent examples I've seen, that these are people who haven't the vaguest idea of how to write to a basic competent standard.

Yes, I've been there myself - but these days the internet delivers information as we request it, it's easy to find resources and references that can help make our writing stronger. What we need is out there and only a few clicks away.

The hardest part seems to be willingness to accept there are flaws, and therefore to look for them.

 

[chopper]

I was going to rant, but I won't.

Some people, unfortunately, just won't accept that writing is a skill. It must be learned. Preferably, before you hit the "publish" button.

(hint: there are things called writers' groups. You'll find out about them at a place called the library. Go ask.)

 

[hopewrites]

I think it goes deeper than one's writing, and therefor will surface in the writing. How many people can look at themselves and be comfortable saying "I am flawed" I know I am slogging through a personal struggle to do just that, and every thing I write shows it to me. I look at what I wrote before I started this crusade of self discovery in improvement and its garbage, I cant stomach reading it the pettiness of the characters, the hypocrisy of the plot (when there even is one), or the naivete of the world building.

Yes the hardest part is accepting there are flaws. Once the flaws are seen they are easy to fix. I think that goes for life as well as writing.

but how many ants will accept their own insignificance? not many. people are no different, we have a drive to see the best in ourselves and hold that up as our definition. an ability to see the worst in ourselves goes contrary to our nature, however necessary to our survival it may be.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm working on doing it, I know other who are working on the same. But I am acknowledging that it is hard, very hard, and that without the proper drive and support, something that it would be all to easy to give up as impossible.

my mantra is: it's only impossible if one thinks it is.

 

[Brian G Turner]

In fact, this should be applied to published writers as well.

The more I read about the genre, the more sloppy writing I encounter - writers who cannot develop characters, writers who cannot develop plot, writers who cannot get to the point.

I'm beginning to feel a sense of laziness in genre writing at the moment, and the sad part is that successful authors also seem to fail to challenge their own work.

I would hope that the ability to challenge yourself and what you produce should be a part of being a writer - but at present, at all levels, I keep seeing an inability for writers to do this.

Or am I just suffering from reading exhaustion?

 

[Gary Compton]

I've seen them too Brian and looked at their work. They seem to think that with little experience and not much effort they can knock out a book that will sell.

You've been working on yours for 10 years and I've been grinding my story out for seven. And we're both intelligent to know were not there yet - might not ever get there

Is that age thing or the experience of running a business knowing that "the product," has to be better than the competition, as has the presentation.

You've had a pro editor look as yours, as I have. We both have had work pulled apart in critiques. Soon I'll be putting mine in the WG, you've been there. We're serious.

I'm not sure what the answer is but as a senior member I am getting a bit sick of the links, the blogs etc etc. They come in like vultures, pick off the Chrons carcass what they can, squawk, and fly away never to be seen or heard of again.

If it was me I would raise some of the thresholds but you know better than me whats needed.

 

[Abernovo]

I'll add to that, chopper. Not only does it have to be learnt, it has to be practised. A bit like driving, where you learn to pass your test then, hopefully, improve your skills over time through driving on your own.

And the one thing you can be sure of is that you can always improve - but it requires work and a willingness to admit to imperfection.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

It's definitely made me think again about going the self-pubb'd route. Some of the stuff is so poor, that I think it would be a case of getting tarred with the same.

I wrote my masterpiece (ahem) about 14 months ago, but when it was suggested that it was amateurish, I was very glad to find the chrons and get some feedback. I have a long way to go, I know that, but I've worked hard and intend to keep working hard...

But, I do also sympathise. I was sure my wip was the best thing since sliced bread last year. I was happy to get someone to read it, sure they'd say the same. thankfully, I got an honest critter who said, ahem; no.

(sadly the opposite is now generally true and I think most of what I write is very far from polished. I'd like to find the middle ground at some stage.)

But, it's getting to the stage where I see self-pubbed and wince in advance. Which isn't what I want to produce. So, I'll keep plugging and plodding and annoying everyone here in a quest to get a little better.

 

[chopper]

In fact, this should be applied to published writers as well.

The more I read about the genre, the more sloppy writing I encounter - writers who cannot develop characters, writers who cannot develop plot, writers who cannot get to the point.


Or am I just suffering from reading exhaustion?

I've seen this too. There is a part of me that wonders if I've lost the ability to read uncritically (as in: what is this author doing? does it work? rather than Wow this is fun!), but there are things I've seen that make me wonder how they've got past editors. One epic fantasy in particular made me scream by describing a castle as having terrible plumbing.

Maybe we all need to start reading for fun again!

 

[The Judge]

Oooh, a chopper rant. I'd like to see it -- go on, rant away.

I think part of the problem is that for so many years education theorists -- over here at any rate -- have elevated ideas and self-expression above grammar and spelling, and people are leaving school without the basic tools of the writing trade. They may have great concepts and some talent, but they've never been taught to examine what they write in any detail.

On the other hand youngsters are much more au fait with the internet than I was when I was first peddling my first book around agents. I had no idea places like this existed, and it took some weeks to pluck up the courage to join. If I'd been a member here when I first started writing seriously I wouldn't have made half the mistakes I did.

I think there's also a difference in expectation -- people don't want to wait to achieve success, they want everything now.

 

[chopper]

Oooh, a chopper rant. I'd like to see it -- go on, rant away.

No, seriously, you don't... I've just hit 100k on the WIP, we'd all be here all night...

I think part of the problem is that for so many years education theorists -- over here at any rate -- have elevated ideas and self-expression above grammar and spelling, and people are leaving school without the basic tools of the writing trade. They may have great concepts and some talent, but they've never been taught to examine what they write in any detail.

On the other hand youngsters are much more au fait with the internet than I was when I was first peddling my first book around agents. I had no idea places like this existed, and it took some weeks to pluck up the courage to join. If I'd been a member here when I first started writing seriously I wouldn't have made half the mistakes I did.

I think there's also a difference in expectation -- people don't want to wait to achieve success, they want everything now.

exactly so. it's no coincidence that we of Certain Generations (Class of '77 here) are the ones who are happy to take the time to get things right. the same thing is evident in art as well, with the loss of focus on technique in favour of flashy will-this-do Emin-ism (this is a favourite rant topic here at House Chopper).

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think part of the problem is that for so many years education theorists -- over here at any rate -- have elevated ideas and self-expression above grammar and spelling, and people are leaving school without the basic tools of the writing trade. They may have great concepts and some talent, but they've never been taught to examine what they write in any detail.

QUOTE]


I'm not sure it's entirely this. I was lucky enough to have one of them posh grammar educations (they're quite common over here, so not that posh) and kind of knew most of the basics of grammar. (yes, yes, the apostrophes...). What was never taught to me was the skill of story telling, the keeping in one head, the sledgehammering (lord, I love my sledgehammer, though I try to leave it at the door now), the pacing, the telling, pov closeness (*wincing*).

Chopper mentions writing groups - in some areas, they're pretty rare, and for SFF non existant. (I'm pretty rural here, although there are some in Belfast, but with a job and two kids finding the time is a challenge). I was lucky enough to get absorbed into a virtual one, and it's been really useful, but only happened after I got here.

I think the Chrons is a really good resource, the post rule is good, and the tolerance is very important, and something we wouldn't want to lose. I know without so many tolerant voices here, I'd have chucked in the towel long ago, and been much the worse for it.

Part of it is, I think, how strict we should be on self promotion. I've read a thread that posed an introductory, but was a blantant self promo, and a few others, one of which I suspect started this thread. As IBrian says, more and more people are going down that route, and while I want to support people like Scarfy (thoroughly enjoying one on my kindle app, btw Scarfy) I really don't want to be blasted with promos. I lasted 5 mins on another writing forum because I got inundated on the welcome thread with peoples' blogs and websites, and requests for amazon etc. feedback. It's not what I want here.

 

[JWREmmett]

Plato said, expressing oneself poorly does harm to our soul.

The implication, is writing well is good for your soul. Given this, one must value their soul, or lose it.

(Typos are little demons.)

 

[Gary Compton]

It's definitely made me think again about going the self-pubb'd route. Some of the stuff is so poor, that I think it would be a case of getting tarred with the same

As alot of people know, I intend to explore being in control of my own destiny. However, I hate the words, "self-published."

If I publish my own book. It will be through my own publishing company and, hopefully I will have a team of people with me. I may publish other peoples books as well. My deal would be based on sales and not an advance on potential sales.

I have spent most of my career selling kitchens and I would never take on a salesman and give him 20K upfront, hoping that my feeling about him selling would turn into reality.

It was dead simple. Sell a 10K kitchen - get a grand. Sell nowt - get nowt.

That focuses their minds on every deal. I think the advance system is flawed. IMO, an established author has no point in getting their book better than good apart from your own drive and pride in what you do cos you know the money is partly in the bank.

There are always exceptions but I keep looking at so called great writers and I wonder what the fuss is about.

Gary rant over

 

[Kissmequick]

One epic fantasy in particular made me scream by describing a castle as having terrible plumbing.

This confuses me somewhat. Could you elaborate? Cos some castles did have plumbing (of a sort - piped water if not toilets). Or if it's second world, well, they might all have plumbing - the Romans managed it after all - and this one's was rubbish in comparison.


Anyway, I can recall being at the 'OMG I'm awesome!' stage well enough to have some sympathy for it. It's a sort of Dunning-Kruger effect thing. The more I write, the more I think my writing sucks tbh.

As for reading - I think when you write you do go through a stage of looking at everything and picking holes in it - I certainly did! It generally passes. Now, while I don't read things uncritically often, I can, with the right story, get lost in it despite its flaws (the difference I know what those flaws are and yet they don't detract from my enjoyment). Because no writing is perfect, as no writer is perfect. They don't need to be perfect - they need to be good enough that I enjoy them.


And the whole coming to promo/get a crit and then leaving - yeah it happens with most writers' forums. It sucks, but there you are.

 

[j d worthington]

Yes, TJ, they do. And that's a big part of the problem. As others have said, writing is a skill; it takes development and constant improvement. One is never as good as one can be.

As for the educational aspect of this... yes, I think that has to bear a fair amount of the blame, as well. Self-expression is the basis of art, yes; but in order to be a good artist, one must convey those thoughts and feelings to others; and when the writing gets sloppy, at best all the reader/viewer/listener receives is a very muddy impression of what the person is trying to convey; hence the message (save for the roughest outline) gets lost. All the things which make for truly powerful, memorable writing are missing, and what is left is bilge that a kindergartener could almost produce.

As Brian and others have said, I am sick to death of newbies who think they can do it better than anyone who has gone before, as well as published writers who have simply become lazy or slapdash in their practices. There are still plenty of good writers out there, but they are often ones who are not so "flashy" or well-known (save to either a discerning few or those who are extremely widely read). And for new writers who think they know how to truly create sentences, let alone characters or (more or less) original situations, they really need to heavy-duty course in reading genuinely good literature intensely and critically, to be able to tell the difference. Henry James might be a bit much (though at his best he remains exceptionally good at the nuances of character and setting, and the interrelationship between the two); but at least go for a broad range of writing, from the minimalist to the absurdist to the extremely precise and atmospheric (say, Simenon, Chandler, Proust, Ligotti, Dickens, Ionesco, Lovecraft, Ballard, etc.) and beyond. And read deeply, with genuinely focused attention on how it is done, and what works and what doesn't.

Most of all, though, I agree; the first rule for most of these is simply: GET OVER YOURSELF!

 

[Abernovo]

I think there's also a difference in expectation -- people don't want to wait to achieve success, they want everything now.

Your Honour, I couldn't agree more. At the risk of sounding very old, that is one of the problems with our society. What I'm about to say may offend some people, but I'm sure that anyone who knows anything about me here, will understand where it's coming from.

The instant gratification is, in my opinion, summed up by a statement that I read too often: 'I'm writing a book.'

No! You're not writing a book. You might be writing a novel, as the 'novel' is a designated length of story - go look it up on the SFWA website. But it's not a (expletive deleted) book until it's bound and out there on the shelves, or at least a properly made-up and edited e-book with an official ISBN (Ian Sales is right about that).

Otherwise you are, at best, scribbling with a desire to one day be published, or deluding yourself, and possibly others, with statements of unearned grandeur.

Apologies for the rant. This has been building for a while. You can change my name to curmudgeon.

 

[chopper]

fair enough Springs, i'll admit that as i'm in a city i have more access to libraries etc & writing groops, so i'll revise the point to be that i think most of the people Brian is on about have not made any effort to get involved in any kind of real or virtual writing community to measure/improve their skillsets. they attempt to bludgeon their way into forums as purely commercial ventures after having published, rather than using said forums to find out about their preferred markets.

i rarely go into Introductions these days, but i suspect many of the new threads there will prove to be drive-by shoutings(more than happy to be proved wrong!). with the need to garner 15 posts before being able to post a link, it's usually quite evident which are the most egregious examples.

getting into rant mode, leading on from your point about storytelling, it's also quite obvious that far too many people who want to write a book haven't actually read many books, and that comes across in their writing. that's the thing that amazes me. the modern education system has let a whole generation down, for my money, and now you have parents who think it's too much trouble to read to their own children - which means the poor buggers will never really have a chance, not when Microsoft, Apple and feckin TOWIE get their claws into them.

/pauserant

KMQ - the reason i mentioned the plumbing was that it was in the middle of an otherwise well-written description of the said castle, giving me the impression that this was a domineering, stark place in a snowy wilderness. abruptly, the author pulled me out with "And the plumbing was terrible", just like it was a Tripadvisor review. it's a bit like having Conan stand up and go "Reminds me of Lanzarote".

 

[allmywires]

Hooray, a rant post

I have written stories for as long as I can remember and I have always been plagued by self-doubt. Even now whenever I crit something, I make sure to be at pains to point out that it's only my opinion, and I could be entirely wrong. The reason I never finish anything is because I'm convinced it's a useless pile of sh*t (not to put a finer point on it). Does it make me a better writer? Maybe, because I'm always critical of myself. The problem with these self-publishers is generally their own arrogance, I find.

I have no problem with people who are - let's face it - not natural wordsmiths wanting to tell their story. Nobody should be culled from doing what they want to. But to think they could come and criticise others whose work, for one, adheres to the natural laws of language and punctuation, whose characters are not thinly-veiled caricatures and whose stories are complex and thought out galls me. For one, how can they apply a critical eye to other's work if their own is so poorly thought out?

RE: the curse of the modern world, I'm one of the Internet generation. We're not all like it, promise.

 

[JWREmmett]

No! You're not writing a book. You might be writing a novel, as the 'novel' is a designated length of story - go look it up on the SFWA website. But it's not a (expletive deleted) book

Yes, Tolkien wasn't writing "a book," he was writing a history of the Elves!

 

[Kissmequick]

But to think they could come and criticise others whose work, for one, adheres to the natural laws of language and punctuation, whose characters are not thinly-veiled caricatures and whose stories are complex and thought out galls me. For one, how can they apply a critical eye to other's work if their own is so poorly thought out?

In the same way that readers will criticise a book because they didn't enjoy it, and are perfectly entitles to do so. I often find non-writers' crits give just as valuable insights (but different) on flaws in my work. Which is why one of my regular betas isn't a writer, but a voracious reader. And my harshest critic.

You don't need to be able to write to do a good critique - you just need to be able to read critically. These are two separate skill sets.

'You aren't good enough to crit my work' isn't a valid reason to ignore someone pointing out a problem.