Significance of Lady - Some spoilers for ASOS and ADWD

[juleska]

I'm currently in ADWD on my full re-read of the series thus far. In re-reading all the books I've noticed that every time Ghost is described in one of Jon's chapters, he's reaching out to his siblings and notes that there is one he can no longer sense. But at the beginning of ADWD there is a very specific passage:

"Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt tot sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister's pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

"Snow," the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilste he crawled off alone. Four remained...and one the white wolf could no longer sense."

Given what happened at The Twins, shouldn't there now be two he can "no longer sense"? Or is the one he can no longer sense Grey Wind, and Lady is still out there somewhere? Or is her spirit still out there, living on in Sansa?

I had wondered if killing Lady was akin to killing the Stark in Sansa, but where does that leave Robb and Grey Wind?

Is it possible Lady is still out there? If not, and her spirit lives on in Sansa, what does that tell us about Sansa's future?

Another thing we can take from this passage is that it looks like Rickon is having a bad time in Skaagos.

 

[Rufio]

The four left are Summer, Shaggydog, Nymeria and Ghost himself, I think he can't sense Summer because The Wall is between the two of them.

Greywind and Lady are dead. ()

 

[juleska]

Yeah I know that those two are dead.....but actually later in the same chapter it goes on to say that he knows his "brother who smells of Summer" is on the other side of the wall, so he's not talking about Summer there. The one he cannot sense anymore is either Lady or Grey Wind. But why not both? That's the question.

 

[mtzGr]

I think it's pretty clear from the passage that he isn't referencing either Grey Wind or Lady when he says he can no longer sense one of the remaining four wolves. The fact that he knows Summer is beyond the wall, doesn't mean that he can still sense him. He's likely lost whatever mental bond they shared for whatever reason (the area Bran is in transcends time, is removed from the temporal plane, the wall itself, or whatever it might be). Somebody could go digging and probably find out if Ghost had lost all contact with his siblings when he went beyond the wall.

 

[juleska]

I think it's pretty clear from the passage that he isn't referencing either Grey Wind or Lady when he says he can no longer sense one of the remaining four wolves. The fact that he knows Summer is beyond the wall, doesn't mean that he can still sense him. He's likely lost whatever mental bond they shared for whatever reason (the area Bran is in transcends time, is removed from the temporal plane, the wall itself, or whatever it might be). Somebody could go digging and probably find out if Ghost had lost all contact with his siblings when he went beyond the wall.

Again....this is incorrect. As I said above, just the next paragraph down in the same chapter he talks about Summer distinctly as one of the four who remain, and one of the five he can still sense.

"Snow," the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer."

And further still in the chapter, after Jon wakes up and is recalling his wolf dream:

"The wolf dreams had been growing stronger, and he found himself remembering them even when awake. Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him. Bran and Rickon had been murdered too, beheaded at the behest of Theon Greyjoy, who had once been their lord father's ward....but if dreams did not lie, their direwolves escaped. At Queenscrown, one had come out of the darkness to save Jon's life. Summer, it had to be. his fur was grey, and Shaggydog is black. He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves.

So....back to my question...

If two wolves are dead, why is there only one that Ghost can "no longer sense"? It clearly is not Summer. If Grey Wind is the one he cannot sense, why not Lady? What's the significance?

 

[mtzGr]

Again....this is incorrect. As I said above, just the next paragraph down in the same chapter he talks about Summer distinctly as one of the four who remain, and one of the five he can still sense.



And further still in the chapter, after Jon wakes up and is recalling his wolf dream:


So....back to my question...

If two wolves are dead, why is there only one that Ghost can "no longer sense"? It clearly is not Summer. If Grey Wind is the one he cannot sense, why not Lady? What's the significance?

I think you are simply misinterpreting the original passage you quoted.

Ghost knowing that Summer is beyond the wall, again, does not mean that he can still sense him, it only means that he knows he is somewhere beyond the wall. To illustrate this point, say for instance I am out trekking around in the wilderness somewhere and calling you at your house on my cell phone. All of a sudden I lose service. Now you know more or less where I am because we were just talking, but we have no way to communicate with each other.

In the original passage, Ghost relates what's happening with Nymeria and Shaggydog, but not Summer, who I think we can safely say is the one he no longer has contact with, for whatever reason.

Four remained...and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

I can see how you might construe that as him saying there is another wolf, but putting this sentence into context, I don't think there's any reason to believe this.

 

[Keebs411]

With out having gone back to my books, did Ned or anyone send back ladys bones or word to winterfell? Informing them that she died or that he had to kill her?

I only ask because one i cant remeber lol. Two , aside from the wolf dreams johns having to asure and confirm to him nymeria summer and shaggy dog are still around hes also using what hes been told about his siblings. He was told about rob and his wolf, he was told about bran and rickon but still senses their wolves, and as far as he knows both of his sisters are still alive, and he senses nymeria.... maybe the ones hes lost sense of is lady and hes confused as to why if his sister is still alive?

Obviously this doesnt work if word was sent to winterfell about lady back in the 1st book... bu then again when ned and the girls left for KL he was already on his way to the wall, would any one feel the need to send him word simply about his sisters wolf? Prob not. Idk if thats any sort of signifigance but poss explanation on which wolf he cant sense and why?

 

[devilsgrin]

Four remained...and one the white wolf could no longer sense."

this is the key line in the original passage. Ghost/Jon is aware that 4 of them remained (Ghost, Nymeria, Shaggydog and Summer). But he could only not sense 1 of those four (Summer). Ghost/Jon is only sensing three others afterall. seeing as he is one of the 4.

 

[Needle]

With out having gone back to my books, did Ned or anyone send back ladys bones or word to winterfell? Informing them that she died or that he had to kill her?

I only ask because one i cant remeber lol. Two , aside from the wolf dreams johns having to asure and confirm to him nymeria summer and shaggy dog are still around hes also using what hes been told about his siblings. He was told about rob and his wolf, he was told about bran and rickon but still senses their wolves, and as far as he knows both of his sisters are still alive, and he senses nymeria.... maybe the ones hes lost sense of is lady and hes confused as to why if his sister is still alive?

Obviously this doesnt work if word was sent to winterfell about lady back in the 1st book... bu then again when ned and the girls left for KL he was already on his way to the wall, would any one feel the need to send him word simply about his sisters wolf? Prob not. Idk if thats any sort of signifigance but poss explanation on which wolf he cant sense and why?

I am still debating the meaning of these passages but Lady's bones were sent back to Winterfell with some of Ned's men. I remember this because we are told how Summer and Shaggydog began to howl long before the bones entered the gates of Winterfell.

So while I can not be entirely sure that Jon/Ghost was told, I am sure Summer and Shaggydog know. so I have to assume that Ghost would know because they do, and if Ghost knows, Jon knows.

 

[Keebs411]

I am still debating the meaning of these passages but Lady's bones were sent back to Winterfell with some of Ned's men. I remember this because we are told how Summer and Shaggydog began to howl long before the bones entered the gates of Winterfell.

So while I can not be entirely sure that Jon/Ghost was told, I am sure Summer and Shaggydog know. so I have to assume that Ghost would know because they do, and if Ghost knows, Jon knows.

Thank u needle!

And i think devilsgrin has it, one of the 4 left he can not sense. Jon and ghost are deff the strongest warg wise of the remaining siblings left ( although we never have any rickon pov chapters so tech we dont know what he can do or sense w shaggydog). But as far as bran and arya they only sense their own wolves really. The can see the others only if their own dire wolf is around them but other wise dont seem to be able to know what is going on with them. Yet here jon as ghost can. He can tell you what each has been or is currently doing, and this is without him even trying..... i can't wait to see what he can do when he actually applies himself

 

[juleska]

It's entirely possible that I just misinterpreted the passages. It seems strange that Summer would be the one he can no longer sense when it goes on to describe how he senses that it's colder where his other brother is, on the other side of the Wall. But that doesn't make any less sense than there being only one of the original six he can no longer sense while two of those six are dead.

So if I'm simply misinterpreting this passage then there is no significance to the potential for Lady's spirit somehow living on through Sansa....it brings me to another question. Sansa being alive, but completely shut away from her family and with no wolf to keep her grounded in who she was, will she ever truly be a Stark? I don't think Sansa will ever see Winterfell again, despite Littlefinger's best laid plans.

 

[Rufio]

With the second passage it is a little unclear. I'm pretty sure The Wall does act as a barrier for wargs to at least some extent, as IIRC Jon loses his connection with Ghost when they are seperated by it. Perhaps Ghost knows that Summer is north of The Wall and therefore that it's colder where he is, but the use of the word sense makes it a little confusing if that is the case. I still think that it's the most likely explanation, with the descriptions of Shaggy and Nymeria but not Summer.

Another possibility is that it's Greywind he can't sense, being north of The Wall at the time of the Red Wedding and didn't sense that, but is aware of his absence.

I don't think the death of Lady means the death of Sansa's 'Starkness' or northerness. She certainly lost her connection to her family and her agency, mainly thanks to Joffrey and Cersei, but she also lost her naivete about the world, belief in true knights, good princes and their ladies etc, she doesn't dream of being a 'southern lady' any more, she prays at the Godswood in King's Landing instead of praying to the seven as she had previously, in the way her mother did. She's lost her Stark name for the moment and Littlefinger is clearly using that as a tool to control her but she builds Winterfell in the snow, she even misses Jon and Arya! I think she's more a Stark now than she ever has been.

Whether she ever gets back to Winterfell, who knows, but if she can get rid of Littlefinger somehow she could be in a very powerful position (to help the north) where she is in The Vale.

 

[Needle]

With the second passage it is a little unclear. I'm pretty sure The Wall does act as a barrier for wargs to at least some extent, as IIRC Jon loses his connection with Ghost when they are seperated by it. Perhaps Ghost knows that Summer is north of The Wall and therefore that it's colder where he is, but the use of the word sense makes it a little confusing if that is the case. I still think that it's the most likely explanation, with the descriptions of Shaggy and Nymeria but not Summer.

Another possibility is that it's Greywind he can't sense, being north of The Wall at the time of the Red Wedding and didn't sense that, but is aware of his absence.

I don't think the death of Lady means the death of Sansa's 'Starkness' or northerness. She certainly lost her connection to her family and her agency, mainly thanks to Joffrey and Cersei, but she also lost her naivete about the world, belief in true knights, good princes and their ladies etc, she doesn't dream of being a 'southern lady' any more, she prays at the Godswood in King's Landing instead of praying to the seven as she had previously, in the way her mother did. She's lost her Stark name for the moment and Littlefinger is clearly using that as a tool to control her but she builds Winterfell in the snow, she even misses Jon and Arya! I think she's more a Stark now than she ever has been.

Whether she ever gets back to Winterfell, who knows, but if she can get rid of Littlefinger somehow she could be in a very powerful position (to help the north) where she is in The Vale.

Yes! What Rufio said!

I had not thought of it but you very well could be right, as Ghost was north of the wall when Greywind was killed he may be confused as to why he can no longer sense him.

A question (I am racking my brain and for the life of me can't remember!) where were Bran and Rickon during TRW?

I totally agree about Sansa too! Have been saying she will end up with the Vale and possibly Winterfell too. She has indeed lost her romantic dreams of the southron life. Home is the place your heart longs for when you cannot be there, Sansa now really knows where that is. I have to hope she can be happy with Harry the Heir, it is possible surely, and Winterfell will be her's at least for awhile. Jon won't claim it, Arya is younger, Bran will soon be a tree, and Rickon is what, 4 or 5 years old-he will need someone. The Vale has a powerful, intact army, and strategic position as yet untouched by the wars, I think she will use them to regain Winterfell at the least.

Back on track a little

Question 2- Does anybody think it possible that when Bran is fully treeish that Summer may go to Sansa? Possibly at Bran's direction?

 

[joepan29]

She doesn't dream of being a 'southern lady' any more, she prays at the Godswood in King's Landing instead of praying to the seven as she had previously, in the way her mother did.

I think the key for Sansa returning to full Starkness will be her praying at the Godswood (assuming there's a Godswood in the Vale, I don't remember). This will give her time to reflect on being a Stark, and it will also give TreeBran numerous opportunities to reach out to her.

(This is my first post...I started reading GoT last fall and finished ADWD 4 months ago and I feel like I've been waiting FOREVER for the next one to come out, so condolences to all you who waited the years between books)

 

[Rufio]

I think the key for Sansa returning to full Starkness will be her praying at the Godswood (assuming there's a Godswood in the Vale, I don't remember). This will give her time to reflect on being a Stark, and it will also give TreeBran numerous opportunities to reach out to her.

(This is my first post...I started reading GoT last fall and finished ADWD 4 months ago and I feel like I've been waiting FOREVER for the next one to come out, so condolences to all you who waited the years between books)

I remember that there is no Godswood in The Eyrie because it's too high up for it to grow. But they're not in The Eyrie anymore, I don't know if there's one in the Gates of The Moon but I would guess there is. Good point about Bran. Welcome to the boards. I never had to wait as long as some, I got into the series before the tv show but after Feast For Crows was out and I didn't read that until Dance for Dragon's was definitely coming out. At the moment I'm quite relaxed about the next book, I can't imagine what it was like for some fans who waited as long as 10 years (for some of the storylines).

Yes! What Rufio said!

I had not thought of it but you very well could be right, as Ghost was north of the wall when Greywind was killed he may be confused as to why he can no longer sense him.

A question (I am racking my brain and for the life of me can't remember!) where were Bran and Rickon during TRW?

I totally agree about Sansa too! Have been saying she will end up with the Vale and possibly Winterfell too. She has indeed lost her romantic dreams of the southron life. Home is the place your heart longs for when you cannot be there, Sansa now really knows where that is. I have to hope she can be happy with Harry the Heir, it is possible surely, and Winterfell will be her's at least for awhile. Jon won't claim it, Arya is younger, Bran will soon be a tree, and Rickon is what, 4 or 5 years old-he will need someone. The Vale has a powerful, intact army, and strategic position as yet untouched by the wars, I think she will use them to regain Winterfell at the least.

Back on track a little

Question 2- Does anybody think it possible that when Bran is fully treeish that Summer may go to Sansa? Possibly at Bran's direction?

The sack of Winterfell happened before the Red Wedding, so I think Bran and Rickon would have been travelling, but for Bran not yet north of The Wall as if I remember correctly they ended Storm of Swords passing through/under it.

I'm not convinced the marriage of Sansa to Hardyng is going to happen, if for no other reason than that when a character lays out their plans in advance (to the audience) they don't tend to work out.

I think Summer will stay where he is and be Bran's (and the reader's) eyes in the north. There's a long way between him and Sansa, plus the wall. Nymeria is a lot closer...

 

[devilsgrin]

I think Summer will stay where he is and be Bran's (and the reader's) eyes in the north. There's a long way between him and Sansa, plus the wall. Nymeria is a lot closer..

i think you're correct about Summer staying with Bran. Sending him away isn't an option. For either of them really.
As to Nymeria - i can't see her properly bonding with Sansa - our Sansa may have grown up a lot, but she is still a Lady. Not a warrior. Nymeria is the Alpha of a huge pack of wolves terrorising the Riverlands...She is a "warrior" and though i suspect she'd know Sansa and remember her, i doubt she'd bond. An alliance between them could be interesting... tho i seem to recall Arya still seeing through Nymeria's eyes whilst dreaming, even being in Braavos.

Oh, and no godswood in the Eyrie, BUT, there IS a sickly all-but-dead Weirwood tree...with a "solemn" iirc face.

 

[mtzGr]

I think what juleska means is that Lady's death might be sort of a presentiment of Sansa's death, or her eventual destruction (despair might overpower her?). I could buy this, as there is a good deal of importance laid on the connection between the children and their wolves. However, she's pretty important at this time (as Needle mentioned she is the heir of Winterfell), and so I have to think she will remain in the game insofar as she's a good piece to fix the mess at Winterfell. As for the Vale I'm unsure.

 

[Eulalia]

There is some evidence that Sansa used her rank and Ladylike courtesy as her armour, so perhaps Lady is not so far away. She also has shown some pluck, subtle attack and calm in some pretty harrowing situations. While she doesn't swing a sword, I think she will aquire some buddies along the way who do. I think she is growing into queenly power. (mother and maiden)

Sansa built Winterfell out of snow don't forget. That whole scene is loaded with foreshadowing. In the end she tears off the giants head and mounts it in her snow castle. Ned said that Sansa and Arya will have to work together and I'm betting that they will. In that scene she recalls Arya and her rubbing snow into each others hair and neck--could be waking each other up to their Starkness?

 

[Needle]

I remember that there is no Godswood in The Eyrie because it's too high up for it to grow. But they're not in The Eyrie anymore, I don't know if there's one in the Gates of The Moon but I would guess there is. Good point about Bran. Welcome to the boards. I never had to wait as long as some, I got into the series before the tv show but after Feast For Crows was out and I didn't read that until Dance for Dragon's was definitely coming out. At the moment I'm quite relaxed about the next book, I can't imagine what it was like for some fans who waited as long as 10 years (for some of the storylines).


The sack of Winterfell happened before the Red Wedding, so I think Bran and Rickon would have been travelling, but for Bran not yet north of The Wall as if I remember correctly they ended Storm of Swords passing through/under it.

I'm not convinced the marriage of Sansa to Hardyng is going to happen, if for no other reason than that when a character lays out their plans in advance (to the audience) they don't tend to work out.

I think Summer will stay where he is and be Bran's (and the reader's) eyes in the north. There's a long way between him and Sansa, plus the wall. Nymeria is a lot closer...

Thanks Rufio, I was pretty sure they had already left Winterfell, but could not remember for sure.

As to Sansa, it very well may not happen, you make some good points, but my romantic side will continue to hope!

Nymeria huh? It's a thought, Sansa could use a good dose of pure wolf!

P.S. There is a Godswood, of sorts, in the Eyrie but it does not have a weirwood, you are correct there, they would not grow in the rocks so high up.

 

[Eulalia]

Jojen seems doomed. Cold hands must stay in the far North.

Speculation follows.

Sonething has got to give with Meera, Hodor, and Summer. Are they just going to hang around with Bran and be companions? Or are they going to have a quest, perhaps to help out Sansa, Arya and Rickon (and maybe Jon) retake Winterfell or defeat the Others? Maybe they need to make the long journey to inform everyone about Bran and how to use the tree network. They don't seem to be Dany supporters, but who knows. Depends how these story lines come together.

Perhaps Tyrion will eventually re claim Sansa as his wife, and she will agree to stop a war.