The Dragons in The Winds of Winter?

[Yog-Sothoth]

This is post-ADWD, so anyone that hasn't read the last five books, please exit the topic to prevent reading spoilers.


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A Dance With Dragons ends with Dany only commanding a single dragon, with the other two chilling and burning around Meereen. I have a few questions, and hope for any theories you might have:

- How will Dany subdue them?(through Drogon, since he's the largest dragon of the axis like Balerion?)

- If she does succeed, how long before she loses one of them to any of her competitors once she sets foot on Westeros?(The Horn, the other Targaryan, etc)

^I really think Bran is going to slip into one of them, even if temporarily to do something North of the Wall.

- Do you think the Dragons will be deployed against the Others?

I might have more questions in the near future.

 

[juleska]

I think Bran is the strongest candidate to warg into a dragon, which for me would be about the only thing GRRM can do to make up for crippling him and turning him into a tree.

And I don't think Dany will lose a dragon to a competitor because I don't think any of the people capable of controlling the dragons like her will be working against her.

 

[Pilpel]

I think it's likely we'll see the death of at least one of her dragons. Everyone except for Dany-loyalists would rather see a dead dragon than having Dany control it. If taming it is out of the question, with the damage they do, and how wild they seem to be, it looks to me like it's inevitable. It would be as upsetting as GRRM killing a main character (and therefore possible, even likely ). As for the prophecy, the 3 heads of the dragon is just a metaphor that can be interpreted in many different ways. It might even be one dragon with 3 riders.

 

[juleska]

Anything's a possibility, including a dead dragon (I have one friend who says her money is on the dragons being the only ones standing in the end). I for one hope that we won't lose a dragon not because I'm a Dany loyalist (I'm not), but because there are only 3 dragons in the world right now.

 

[Ursa major]

...but because there are only 3 dragons in the world right now.

Which perhaps suggests the possibility that one of the less magical activities of dragons might take place (in amongst all that chilling and burning).

 

[juleska]

Yes that thought had crossed my mind as well.

 

[Keebs411]

I for one hope that we won't lose a dragon not because I'm a Dany loyalist (I'm not), but because there are only 3 dragons in the world right now.

possibly... there is still the chance of one from winterfell that bran may have seen thru summers eyes. So one of the 3 originals may die only to have a replacement appear. and if this ends up being the case and the rumored winterfell dragon is indeed real, that would be the one i could see being being controlled by bran thru warging or jon (if jon does end up being one of the 3 heads). But the winterfell dragon i would not see appearing until last min type of deal, more of "surprise iv been in hiding, here i am" kind of thing

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

More Dragons deffinately wouldn't hurt the story.

I really like the idea of a Dragon under winterfell, Especially if Bran can warg into it.

 

[Rufio]

I think the chances of Dany losing any dragon to Aegon are nil.

I don't believe in the magical blood of Targaryens, Dany has some measure of control over the dragons - but she is their mother, whether she is imprinted on them like baby birds, or their is some magical connection due to how they were born, I think that is Dany's connection to them rather than her family name or genes. Even that has slipped, although there are signs at the end of Dance that maybe she can bring the dragons back under her control at least to some extent, even without any magic horn.

I wonder if Victarion, having arrived in Meereen and helped in the defence of the city, but finding Dany gone, would be happy to leave instead with just a dragon or two. I think he may be. I know some assume Dany will ride in to that battle with the support of a new Khalasar, but I'm not so sure. In fact I think she won't - though of course it's just a guess.

I don't know if the Winterfell dragon exists. Where did it come from? Under the crypts? Surely Bran and friends who were down there during the sack of Winterfell would have noticed a dragon on it's way out? If it was somewhere else it would have to be somewhere that we haven't seen. Why did no one else see it when it arose, or since? It is an odd passage, someone posted it on here recently and it is more specific than I remembered - it made me question my assumption that it was just a prophetic puff of smoke seen through the eyes of an animal, or something like that, but I still can't entirely buy into the theory. I think more dragons are a possibility though. Maybe even an ice dragon. That would fit my personal theory of where the series is going quite well.

 

[Ursa major]

Why did no one else see it when it arose, or since? It is an odd passage, someone posted it on here recently and it is more specific than I remembered....

That was probably me (in http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1607716-post323.html):

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone.

It could be some sort of foreshadowing, I suppose; or even Bran getting a vision of the past or future.

 

[Young stormlord]

That was probably me (in http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1607716-post323.html):


It could be some sort of foreshadowing, I suppose; or even Bran getting a vision of the past or future.

While we are on the theme of dragon under Winterfell, I can't seem to remember if it was mentioned in ADWD: Are Winterfell's hot springs still hot? I seem to remember Jayne Pool bathing all the time, but it was always serving girls carrying the hot water to her. I seem to remember from AGOT there being some sort of internal tub-faucet system tied to them(hot springs) before.

Or am I wrong?

 

[Rufio]

You are right about hot springs under Winterfell. I have no idea if it was mentioned in Dance - that would be a great piece of evidence to search out, very clever thought stormlord.
The hot spring thing on it's own has been used to support the existence of the dragon, but it doesn't fill any of the holes in the theory.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

As I mentioned before, I like the idea of there being a Dragon under winterfel, but somehow I don't think that dragon has left already, which the whole, hot springs turning cold theory sugests.

My feelings are that if there is a Dragon under there, it would have to be a very old dragon... and that would make it a very big dragon... if it already left, SOMEONE would have seen it. Especially if Bran's (summer's) vision of it was really happening, and it was breathing fire all over the place.

I know Ursa posted the quote from when Bran saw it, but could anybody give me the contect to which that quote was coming from? what else was going on in the chapter, or in other characters chapters at the time?

 

[Ursa major]

The text, and the context it describes, is easy to find: it's on the first page of the last chapter of A Clash of Kings. Bran is having a "wolf-dream", in which Summer and Shaggydog are at the edge of the woods and can see Winterfell burning.

As to Winterfell's plumbing, the hot water not only heated (parts of?) Winterfell but was, I believe, used to keep the ground warm for certain crops grown under glass (which was, I think, all smashed).

Whether all of Winterfell was thus heated, I don't know, and even if it was, there's a possibility that some of the "pipes" may have been blocked during the castle's destruction.

None of this means that Young stormlord hasn't hit on evidence of something supernatural going on.

 

[mtzGr]

I imagine Dany will eventually get the dragons under her command. I think it's just a matter of lost confidence, and being terrified of them. She wants to be this gentle queen, but that is not going to be enough to rule these dragons, or take back the iron throne. The dragons are still very young. As hatchlings, they had a "mother figure" in Dany, but as they've gotten bigger she has faded from their lives. They're dragons, but she doesn't want them to act like dragons; they're chained up, almost discarded. Dany has become weak, and her indecision is their confusion. She is going to have to become strong again (because she isn't right now), resolute, and to some degree cold, and realize things will have to get worse before they can become better.

Or maybe they'll just need to blow a horn.

I don't know about Bran warging into a dragon, especially one that is nowhere near him in the world; his consciousness can travel through the heart trees, but I don't think that means he can now project his ability anywhere in the world. I wonder if he could plant suggestions into peoples minds though.

The dragons vs. the Other is an interesting thought, but I don't think there's enough time with only two books left to make the transition from winning the iron throne to defending the North. Unless while Jon is incapacitated, the Nights Watch and wildlings fall apart, and Others start streaming all over Westeros (this is assuming that the iron throne remains Dany's goal). Perhaps Aegon takes the throne while Dany defends the North? I don't think so, but then it probably wouldn't be too much trouble to ride some dragons a few thousand miles and breathe some fire.

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

Good stuff guys, there are so many paths to take, I don't envy GRRM as a writer, that's quite a task he has embarked upon, but he's an exceptional writer, so I'm not worried.

If find the Dragon under Winterfell theory very intriguing, because the winged snake quote just passed me by when I read A Clash', but then again I was never a fan of those warg dreams so I probably did some speed-reading back then.

Since we are discussing 'mysterious dragons', does anyone remember the repeated claims by Melisandre that she could give Stannis a 'Stone dragon' if only he were to give her Robert's ******* Edric Storm?

What was that about? GRRM has never mentioned the deaths of the previous three dragons Balerion and co. They could still be in hibernation somewhere in Ageon's old capital.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Well, if the dragons are out of control, doesn't Victarion have a horn he could blow them out from the sky with?

 

[Ursa major]

but then again I was never a fan of those warg dreams so I probably did some speed-reading back then.

There will be those who suspect that some of the less riveting sections of the books - and no book of any length can be all excitement, not if it wants to avoid looking unrealistic - are precisely where GRRM will have hidden some of his most significant clues. (Look at all the comments in TV reviews about how Davos is so much more interesting on the small screen than on the page. And yet Stannis's arrival in the North was clearly signposted in one of Davos's chapters; not that I noticed its significance, and so was suitably surprised when the time came.)


* Wonders if certain readers will soon be poring over each and every Bran, Sansa and Brienne chapter. *

 

[Boaz]

YS, long time, no see. Good topic.

Arsten, I disagree with the correlation of size and age in connection with dragons. In ACOK, I think, there are mentions of the descendents of Aegon's dragons who were left in the dragonpit of KL. They were quite smaller than Aegon's dragons. I also seem to remember that dragons will only grow if they have the room. So any dragon under Winterfell needed to do all of it's growing before it hibernated. And can dragons hibernate for milennia? What about food? Are they in a magical stasis? I dunno. If there is a dragon under Winterfell, then it may range in size from tiny to gargantuan.

One other point to everyone... did the old guy mentoring Bran die or is he still alive? I seem to remember him being a Targaryen *******. His power is orders of magnitude above Bran's, so if he's alive and a dragon came within his reach...

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

I,Brian, you think he would risk lungs of fire, and a painful death?

Ursa, I agree, it's time to do a reread for a better persepective, and yes that includes the less exciting parts lol.

Boaz, thanks man, good to see you posting! I think you're confusing Maester Luwin with Egg's brother Aemon.