A question about warging

[juleska]

So I've been gone awhile (again). I missed the discussions here but life happens. Anyway, when I last visited the Jon Snow thread was still on page 20 or so.....and in my absence it's gone all the way to 46!!! I'm only as far as around page 36 of that thread, but all the lengthy discussions about warging in that thread have left a nagging question rattling around in my skull.

When a warg enters another's body (be it human or animal), what happens to the body they leave?

Example, if "someone" wargs into a random cat in their immediate vicinity, their soul / essence / mind / whatever enters that cat but their body is still very much awake and "doing stuff".

So does the body they leave suddenly turn into some kind of brainless zombie-like creature for the duration of the warg? Or does the warg occupy both bodies to some degree?

Or for another example....

****SPOILER WARNING FOR NEWBIES****

When Bran wargs into Hodor, he's almost always "awake". So if Bran departs Bran's body and goes with Hodor off into some other location, is Bran's body just sitting somewhere in a basket staring into empty space? What if someone comes along and tries to have a conversation with him while this is going on?

 

[The Imp]

So I've been gone awhile (again). I missed the discussions here but life happens. Anyway, when I last visited the Jon Snow thread was still on page 20 or so.....and in my absence it's gone all the way to 46!!! I'm only as far as around page 36 of that thread, but all the lengthy discussions about warging in that thread have left a nagging question rattling around in my skull.

When a warg enters another's body (be it human or animal), what happens to the body they leave?

Example, if "someone" wargs into a random cat in their immediate vicinity, their soul / essence / mind / whatever enters that cat but their body is still very much awake and "doing stuff".

So does the body they leave suddenly turn into some kind of brainless zombie-like creature for the duration of the warg? Or does the warg occupy both bodies to some degree?

Or for another example....

****SPOILER WARNING FOR NEWBIES****

When Bran wargs into Hodor, he's almost always "awake". So if Bran departs Bran's body and goes with Hodor off into some other location, is Bran's body just sitting somewhere in a basket staring into empty space? What if someone comes along and tries to have a conversation with him while this is going on?

I started a thread about the Varamyr chapter, which IMO, gives a lot of new info about warging.

The short answer is, I think that the original body is living, breathing, and mindless, and the mind/soul etc. is in the host body. We do know though that Varamyr could control more than one animal at a time, so I'm not sure that we have a definitive answer at this point in time.

 

[Pilpel]

I started a thread about the Varamyr chapter, which IMO, gives a lot of new info about warging.

The short answer is, I think that the original body is living, breathing, and mindless, and the mind/soul etc. is in the host body. We do know though that Varamyr could control more than one animal at a time, so I'm not sure that we have a definitive answer at this point in time.

The way I understood it, Varamyr was more "in command" of his animals, rather than "in control" of them (the way Bran is with Summer).
One of the cool aspects that come with warging, I would imagine, is being able to create a close relationship with the animal, so that it trusts and listens to you, without actually needing to move your consciousness into it.

 

[The Imp]

The way I understood it, Varamyr was more "in command" of his animals, rather than "in control" of them (the way Bran is with Summer).
One of the cool aspects that come with warging, I would imagine, is being able to create a close relationship with the animal, so that it trusts and listens to you, without actually needing to move your consciousness into it.

I'm not sure of the distinction you're making (between command and control). This is the passage i had in mind when I said that.

Varamyr had lost control of his other beasts in the agony of the eagle’s death. His shadowcat had raced into the woods, whilst his snow bear turned her claws on those around her, ripping apart four men before falling to a spear. She would have slain Varamyr had he come within her reach. The bear hated him, had raged each time he wore her skin or climbed upon her back

 

[Kharon]

I believe that the original body falls into some kind of half-conscious coma, while the soul or a part of it is in the other creature. The real question is that what happens to the soul of the "warged" creature? Does it realise what's going on? Can it fight against the warg?

 

[mtzGr]

I'm not sure of the distinction you're making (between command and control). This is the passage i had in mind when I said that.

I imagine the distinction between control and command is "while warged" and "while not warged". To be in control of an animal would be to warg into the animal, for instance Bran warging into Summer, assuming that animals skin, essentially taking over. To be in command of an animal is to be its master or close companion, as the wolves are to the Starks. Jon can give Ghost commands and for the most part he will listen because he trusts him with his life.

I believe it is the same with Varamyr that it is with the Starks, except that the circumstances aren't the same. He does not have his animal's loyalty as the Stark do, because he has mastered them against their will; essentially he has dominated them through warging. Presumably he retains some sort of mental link with these animals (I'm assuming there is evidence for the Starks having this with their wolves, but I don't remember specifically), through which he can retain dominion without necessarily having to warg into them (sort of like a electric collar that shocks them and keeps them in line) as long as he has the presence of mind to not lose his hold, or concentration. Your passage suggests something like this I think, since he is not warged in the bear all the time, though still has her under his control. You might also make an argument for partial-warging, where say you do not assume control of the animal but are able to see through its eyes or something like that (Arya and cats might be an example, but I don't recall the passage clearly enough and I could be completely wrong).

As you said, it seems that your mind leaves your body (and this is probably why it came naturally through dreams).

 

[The Imp]

I imagine the distinction between control and command is "while warged" and "while not warged". To be in control of an animal would be to warg into the animal, for instance Bran warging into Summer, assuming that animals skin, essentially taking over. To be in command of an animal is to be its master or close companion, as the wolves are to the Starks. Jon can give Ghost commands and for the most part he will listen because he trusts him with his life.

I believe it is the same with Varamyr that it is with the Starks, except that the circumstances aren't the same. He does not have his animal's loyalty as the Stark do, because he has mastered them against their will; essentially he has dominated them through warging. Presumably he retains some sort of mental link with these animals (I'm assuming there is evidence for the Starks having this with their wolves, but I don't remember specifically), through which he can retain dominion without necessarily having to warg into them (sort of like a electric collar that shocks them and keeps them in line) as long as he has the presence of mind to not lose his hold, or concentration. Your passage suggests something like this I think, since he is not warged in the bear all the time, though still has her under his control. You might also make an argument for partial-warging, where say you do not assume control of the animal but are able to see through its eyes or something like that (Arya and cats might be an example, but I don't recall the passage clearly enough and I could be completely wrong).

As you said, it seems that your mind leaves your body (and this is probably why it came naturally through dreams).

Good analysis.

I think if the person is actually seeing through a creatures eyes they have warged into it. As i remember it, Arya didn't need to do anything BUT see through the cat's eyes, so there would be no need to "do" anything.

 

[juleska]

I believe that the original body falls into some kind of half-conscious coma, while the soul or a part of it is in the other creature. The real question is that what happens to the soul of the "warged" creature? Does it realise what's going on? Can it fight against the warg?

It definitely fights against the warg. This is covered pretty thoroughly in the ADWD prologue with Varamyr. Also, Hodor resists Bran strongly in the beginning, but now kind of "retreats" in a sort of fearful way until Bran's intrusion passes. That's why it bothers me so much when Bran wargs into Hodor. I don't think it's right.

The way it's described reminds me of how multiple personality disorder works. When someone has MPD, they have more than one personality "awake" at the same time, just that one is in control for the moment while the other(s) are sort of waiting in the wings.

With that in mind, I think the warg's soul is kind of split between the different bodies. The question is, does splitting their soul between multiple bodies make them stronger or weaker?

In Harry Potter canon, Voldemort's soul was ultimately made weaker by splitting it into so many pieces. But the wargs of ASOIAF seem to be made stronger by their ability to split into more pieces.

 

[mtzGr]

I think the warg's soul is kind of split between the different bodies. The question is, does splitting their soul between multiple bodies make them stronger or weaker?

In Harry Potter canon, Voldemort's soul was ultimately made weaker by splitting it into so many pieces. But the wargs of ASOIAF seem to be made stronger by their ability to split into more pieces.

I don't know that the two are directly comparable; that is, the act of warging and Voldemort dividing his soul into multiple parts. What do you mean by "made stronger by their ability to split into more pieces?" I'm not sure if there is any instance of this in ASOIAF. If you mean that the ability itself becomes stronger from the act of warging, I think you're right (like exercising a muscle).

I think using the word consciousness would be a better way to describe what it is that "shifts" between the two bodies while warging, rather than soul (though they can essentially mean the same thing). The question of stronger or weaker then becomes more a question about concentration, rather than power which is not as readily defined. I think the passage that Imp posted suggests something like this.

 

[juleska]

No they're not directly comparable but you're close to what I was driving at.

In the case of Harry Potter / Voldemort, he ultimately became weaker by splitting his soul into too many pieces. In the case of ASOIAF and warging, if my interpretation of warging is correct and a person has their soul split between their own body and the body they are now controlling, the stronger wargs seem able to occupy more than one space at a time with relative ease (see: Varamyr).

I don't know what, if any, implications that leaves us with, I was mostly just wondering what happens to the physical body of the warg when they are occupying the physical body of another.

 

[mtzGr]

No they're not directly comparable but you're close to what I was driving at.

In the case of Harry Potter / Voldemort, he ultimately became weaker by splitting his soul into too many pieces. In the case of ASOIAF and warging, if my interpretation of warging is correct and a person has their soul split between their own body and the body they are now controlling, the stronger wargs seem able to occupy more than one space at a time with relative ease (see: Varamyr).

I don't know what, if any, implications that leaves us with, I was mostly just wondering what happens to the physical body of the warg when they are occupying the physical body of another.

I'm not sure that there is any evidence to suggest that one could warg into multiple bodies at the same time. In the case of Varamyr this is also true to the best of my knowledge, and my earlier post covers what I think the text suggests is going on.

As for the bodies, they probably just appear to be in some kind of trance-like state, with either little or no consciousness.

 

[juleska]

How then is Varamyr able to control more than one animal at a time?

 

[mtzGr]

How then is Varamyr able to control more than one animal at a time?

In my first post I talk about Pilpel's distinction between control and command, and give a possible account of Varamyr that is suggested by what we know from the text.

 

[Needle]

I think we have enough evidence from Bran to say that the body just is while the spirit is away.

When they are fighting their way into the cave he sees his body lying in the snow. When he is with Meera and Jojen (I think while still in the crypts) he appears to be basically sleeping. He calls them his wolf dreams but I think it obvious that his spirit is within Summer when this happens.

 

[The Imp]

I think we have enough evidence from Bran to say that the body just is while the spirit is away.

When they are fighting their way into the cave he sees his body lying in the snow. When he is with Meera and Jojen (I think while still in the crypts) he appears to be basically sleeping. He calls them his wolf dreams but I think it obvious that his spirit is within Summer when this happens.

We also have a ton of evidence in the Varamyr chapter.

 

[Kharon]

It definitely fights against the warg. This is covered pretty thoroughly in the ADWD prologue with Varamyr. Also, Hodor resists Bran strongly in the beginning, but now kind of "retreats" in a sort of fearful way until Bran's intrusion passes. That's why it bothers me so much when Bran wargs into Hodor. I don't think it's right.

I mean, can someone resist the warg?
I imagine this, as the battle of the minds/souls. Animals are weak, and Hodor is simple minded, so not a real challange.

Juleska, do you mean abomination?

 

[The Imp]

I mean, can someone resist the warg?
I imagine this, as the battle of the minds/souls. Animals are weak, and Hodor is simple minded, so not a real challange.

Juleska, do you mean abomination?

Thistle fights Varamyr tooth and nail and claws her own eyes out rather than submit.

 

[juleska]

I don't like using words like "abomination" because it projects a sense of moral superiority. But I just don't think it's right. I cut Bran *some* slack because he's young, but the act of taking over Hodor when it so clearly terrifies him so much seems to run counter to Bran's character. And I don't mean his literary character as defined by GRRM, I mean his moral character. That's why it bothers me. I think Bran is better than that and despite his youth I do think he knows better than that.

Needle, thanks for the reference, that's just what I was looking for. I suppose that's the least complicated way to handle it, because having your soul / spirit in 2 different bodies would have to raise other questions.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I don't think we will ever have a diffinitive answer about what happens when people are warging and the extent of that ability, but I must point something out.

When Arya is looking through the cats eyes, she is actively fighting the kindly man. That is how she is able to figure out who it was that was fighting her. She tell's the kindly man that he was the one fighting her, and then he gives her her sight back. So there must be a degree to which you can extend that power.

 

[Keebs411]

I don't think we will ever have a diffinitive answer about what happens when people are warging and the extent of that ability, but I must point something out.

When Arya is looking through the cats eyes, she is actively fighting the kindly man. That is how she is able to figure out who it was that was fighting her. She tell's the kindly man that he was the one fighting her, and then he gives her her sight back. So there must be a degree to which you can extend that power.

i need to do a re-read but for some reason i dont remeber her actually fighting him. i thought he would just sneak up and hit her or trip her up which she would then spin to react to. So i was under the impression shed warged into the cat just to see who snuck up on her becasue she couldnt figure it out. again i could be wrong ill need to reread that chapter