Gay Marriage

Discussion in 'World affairs' started by mosaix, Mar 15, 2012.

  1.  
    mosaix

    mosaix Active Member

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    David Cameron (the British Prime Minister) hopes to introduce legislation legalising gay marriage in England and Wales.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17378488

    People on Chrons, who know me well, will know that I am not a supporter of Conservative government (or Conservative led coalitions). However I have nothing but praise for Cameron's stance on this and only wish that the previous Labour government had had the guts to do it.
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    Ursa major

    Ursa major Bearly Believable Staff Member

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    It was interesting listening to Any Questions last week, when Eric Pickles, of all people, was being harangued** by Christina Odone because of his support for this change. I'm pleased to say he was having none of it and stuck to his guns.

    Personally, I'm in favour of the change. Civil partnership is marriage in all but name. The name should be changed to reflect this. Otherwise, what does this say about us? That we see some people as not being equal before the law.

    All people should be equal in the eyes of the law. Only when they do things that harm others should they treated any differently, and only in respect of that harmful behaviour. We accept this principle (although often grudgingly) for some of the most awful people around, people whose whole being seems filled with hate for others, hate that they are very willing to put into malign action. Why should we treat these people better than those - gay and lesbian couples - who are doing harm to no-one? For is this not the end of a far more dangerous wedge (see ** below): discrimination, in law, based on what you are not what you do.





    ** - Despite being told more than once that this is a proposed change only to civil law, Ms Odone was insisting that this was the thin end of the wedge, which would lead to forcing churches to sanctify same-sex marriages. Other panellists' arguments that this was nonsense - e.g. civil law allows the divorced to marry, but churches don't have to follow suit - fell on deaf ears.
  3.  
    mosaix

    mosaix Active Member

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    According to the debate on TV just a few moments ago, the legislation will prevent churches from performing same-sex marriages, even if they wanted to. I'm not sure I understand that.
  4.  
    Ursa major

    Ursa major Bearly Believable Staff Member

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    Presumably that's to keep some people happy: the ones who are swivel-eyed, but not actually frothing at the mouth. But I have no sympathy for any of them.

    Probably because of my upbringing (and how long ago it was), I have not always been sympathetic to non-straight people. From my hopelessly limited perspective, I thought that once being gay** and acting on it was no longer illegal (from 1967 on, in the UK), that was all that was needed. I couldn't see what the fuss was about; I couldn't see things from a non-straight perspective. It has me taken until comparatively recently to see things as they are: that all sorts of, frankly, petty things, as well as the more important ones, were still in place to make non-straight people feel less than full citizens. Now if I were in their shoes, where the law was not prepared to see me as a full citizen, I would be very angry.

    But now I am angry, because those who should know better, those who are meant to be - though seldom are - our moral leaders***, take the stand they do on this issue. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.



    ** - I may be wrong, but I don't think lesbian acts were illegal in the UK. (I seem to recall a probably apocryphal story saying that Queen Victoria didn't believe these occurred, so there'd be no reason to make them illegal.)

    *** - And they're not shy in reminding us of this, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.
  5.  
    mosaix

    mosaix Active Member

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    There was a guy on the radio the other day talking about the issue. He started off quite calmly but gradually he got more and more irate until he was practically frothing at the mouth - quite rightly.

    He explained that his local 100%-state-funded church school was allowed, by law, to refuse teaching employment to a local man because he was in a same-sex relationship.

    By the time he was finished I was almost frothing at the mouth as well.
  6.  
    Ursa major

    Ursa major Bearly Believable Staff Member

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  7.  
    AnyaKimlin

    AnyaKimlin Active Member

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    Homosexuality was illegal until 1967 in England and Wales. Scotland it was 1980, Northern Ireland 1982, Isle of Man I think was 1992 and that was forced on them by Europe.

    I agree churches should be allowed to decide on a church by church basis what they do, but I don't see why consenting adults can't get married to whoever they want in whatever quantity etc

    My brother and possibly my sons have Kilinefelters syndrome which means their chromosomes are XXY. They may or may not be gay, transgenders etc because of it but one baby in every 1500 is born with some level of gender ambiguity and are not entirely male or female.

    I've grown up with people who are various degress of LGBTQetc and the one thing I am determined is that if my children are any of the various letters they will not know what a closet is.

    It's time we were more fluid with our attitudes towards gender, sex and marriage.

    @Ursa Major that is really sad - he was one of the few high profile Christian religious leaders that wasn't spitting hatred on the issue. Looks like the Anglican church are going to become less tolerant, and more right wing as a result.
  8.  
    Moonbat

    Moonbat Luna tick

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    IMHO Rowan Williams was a positive force for tolerance and understanding.

    I don't like the idea that the Church has some kind of (attempted) monopoly over marriage, I thought that marriage predates the church by quite a few millenia, but I could be wrong.
  9.  
    Connavar

    Connavar New Member

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    I have not grown up with people of any LGBTQ degree and i have grown up in traditional islamic way but the whole gay issue is very un-modern to me in the way people talk about it.

    I never understood why gay people dont have the same rights to marry each other, same laws. In many countries conservative churches dont have power anymore, its just pure prejudice of average folk who is in the way of progress.

    Sure i can understand why in very conservative countries like US but other democratic western countries....
  10.  
    Michael01

    Michael01 Coven of the Worm

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    Ah, yes, but it shouldn't happen here in the U.S., either; but so many people are blinded by their hatred and their ignorance. We have to put up with certain fundamentalist congregations carrying signs that say, "God hates fags," despite the fact that the very Bible they carry and shove down everyone else's throats says that "God is love." How can a being that is love hate anyone?

    Fortunately, not all religious leaders or sects are so intolerant. But there is a problem, especially when legislators listen to them.

    To make matters worse, it isn't just them. About a week ago, my sister's (finally ex-) boyfriend sat in her room (drunk out of his mind) yelling at the TV during the news. There was the story about introducing legislation for gay marriage in Maryland, and he was yelling, "Why the f... do they suddenly want to get married?" Of course, I was thinking, "Where have you been?"

    I agree with all of you; everyone should be treated equally under the law.
  11.  
    Karn Maeshalanadae

    Karn Maeshalanadae Why?

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    I believe Washington state has passed its recent gay marriage acceptance law, but surprisingly enough, as liberal as my state is, we do not have one. The reason for that is because our state constitution is set up that any and all amending changes to it must be put upon the voters to be passed into law. There have been a number of measures proposed on the matter, but it just seems to keep barely missing.


    I happen to agree with everyone here. Everybody should be able to marry who they wish, regardless of gender. Everyone deserves the same rights.
  12.  
    Moonbat

    Moonbat Luna tick

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    But should marriage be restricted to being between people, or can I marry a horse? (don't let my GF read this ;) )
    I'm sure some people marry thier pets to each other, but I'm guessing it isn't the same legal definition of marriage.
  13.  
    Ursa major

    Ursa major Bearly Believable Staff Member

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    Horses don't believe in divorce, so you'd be saddled with it for life....
  14.  
    Moonbat

    Moonbat Luna tick

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    At least they believe in equine rights, I could always put it out to Pastor.
  15.  
    Ursa major

    Ursa major Bearly Believable Staff Member

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    I expect it would be a stable relationship...








    ...but I wouldn't bet on it coming about. The marriage ceremony would seem to be doomed to failure: the bride and the prospective in-laws are inveterate neigh-sayers; your intended would likely bridle at the arrangement.
  16.  
    AnyaKimlin

    AnyaKimlin Active Member

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    The day your horse can whinney I do and sign the register good luck to the pair of your ;) Naturally you would both have to be over 16/18 and not be siblings ;)
  17.  
    Michael01

    Michael01 Coven of the Worm

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    So the question about the horse wasn't meant to be serious? Man...sorry, Abby, I think I'm gonna break off our engagement. You never told me you don't believe in divorce! Besides, your parents already hate me....

    Now, if you did want someone to take it seriously, that's a completely different issue. As long as we are talking about consenting, human adults (oh, and as Anya just pointed out, not members of the immediate family!), they should, as we have all said, have the same rights and benefits as everyone else.

    I know some people argue that gays are not asking for the same rights. But there's nothing "special" about it. They really are only asking for the same consideration everyone else gets.
  18.  
    Abernovo

    Abernovo Accident-prone, allegedly

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    So, you go through life, then you meet this person that changes everything. The sun comes out when they show up on your doorstep. What's more, they feel the same way about you and after a while, it becomes deeper, more permanent.

    Isn't that something you should want to celebrate? To publicly commit to, perhaps, even to say 'I do' to?

    And isn't that joy, that marriage of two people something we should all celebrate?
  19.  
    Moonbat

    Moonbat Luna tick

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    Well then maybe we could just galope together.
  20.  
    Michael01

    Michael01 Coven of the Worm

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    Yes. And very well said.

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