Positive critiques thread?

[Hex]

I know several of us have had some tough critiques of our wips recently and that can cause serious self-confidence failure. As we've discussed on other threads, it's good to have humility when you're writing, but it's also good to have confidence and to know what you're good at.

So, in the interests of confidence boosting, I thought we could have a thread where critiques focus on what's positive about the excerpts -- sort of like Perp's reviews on the Challenge threads (but probably a little longer).

I thought each excerpt should probably be short-ish (say around 300-500 words) and that there'd be a CAST IRON AND UNBREAKABLE RULE that critiques would focus ONLY on what's good about the writing. We could maybe do it in the workshop.

Would anyone like to do this?

 

[Dozmonic]

If I see people post too often in the critique thread I tend not to read their posts because it takes time to absorb feedback and adopt it into your writing style. If people spent more time being their own critic, they'd probably improve faster. Critiquing does have a place, without a doubt, because sometimes you know something isn't quite right and need advice on how to move it forward. But the regularity of some posts make it seem more like clamour for attention. I think a praise thread would attract this even more. External encouragement and praise is a good thing, but to carry you through the months and years it takes to learn the craft, a lot of that has to come from within.

 

[David Evil Overlord]

I like the idea, and I will take part.

But I do want to add one priviso. As a writer, I want to know when something I wrote just isn't working. That can be done without putting the writer's ego up against the wall and shooting it.

 

[mosaix]

Hi Hex, I think that would be a dishonest approach to critiquing.

I think the the second rule of critiquing (the first is be polite) is be honest.

I don't think it does a writer any good at all by boosting his/her confidence if the writing itself is not up to scratch.

I understand what you are saying about concentrating on what is good, but good critiquing should mention both the good and the bad anyway.

 

[Warren_Paul]

As one of those who has recently received a massively discouraging response for feedback I can sympathise with what your trying to achieve here Hex, but there is a point to negative feedback - it's supposed to help you, be constructive.

BUT

There is a difference between being constructive with your feedback, and being down right brutally nasty - which is what I just experienced.

I'd like to hear nothing but good feedback, if it was genuine, but somebody at some point has to play the critic, otherwise we never improve.

To date I've been quite pleased with the critiques I've received here on Chrons - It's elsewhere that's turning out to be quite painful...

 

[Hex]

It's okay -- no one has to join in unless they think it would be useful

I'm not suggesting we should say things that aren't true. I'm suggesting that focusing on what people do well as opposed to what they do poorly might be a useful exercise.

On the critiques thread sometimes the good stuff gets lost in all the negatives and it can be very hard to hear.

People learn best, I'm reasonably sure, when they feel as if their effort will lead to change and improvement -- I think it might be called 'self-efficacy'. We already have a whole forum for criticism and for pointing out the negative aspects of work, I think it would be nice to have a safe place to explore what's good about people's writing.

Maybe there should be a rule -- if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything -- rather than 'er... I like the typeface you used.'

 

[Warren_Paul]

Yeah, I'd say go ahead with it, I don't see any reason why not, because you're right in that sometimes we need to have pointed out to us what we are actually doing right, so that we know not to change it in an effort to fix what we are doing wrong.


Oh, and I like the typeface you used, Hex.

 

[crystal haven]

It sounds like a good idea to me.

I'm sure it would not be difficult to say, these are the bits that worked for me, and explain why.

From a study of the paragraphs that worked, the writer should be able to realise the parts that didn't, just by the fact they haven't been mentioned.

I'm not good at explaining things, so I hope that makes sense.

 

[Overread]

I don't like the concept that critique should be split into good and bad. My view is that critique should focus not on being good nor bad, but should focus instead on being constructive.
To that end it is going to point out the bad parts first, but it should build on to say how to correct those errors - or suggestions as to how to correct them. If the critiquer can't give corrections and can only point out the errors then they should be bold and say that. The pointing out of errors/problems - how to address them should be the first part of most critique.
Building on from there one should also take time to comment on the good aspects, though sometimes many will overlook this - othertimes many reading might feel that the good points are not enough to counter all the bad that was just said.


From there the person with their work being critiqued also has to learn to accept. They've got to first learn to disassociate from their own writing (hard but possible) so that they can let others hack it to bits and not take it as a personal insult. From there they can more easily accept what is said - weigh up who has said what - read the presented arguments and theories and then decide who to listen too and what points to work upon.

Part of that is learning within a community, who does and doesn't know what they are talking about and who is worth listening to. And its not always the one that agrees with the common view, sometimes its one who points out something that goes against the grain who is right. Normally one looks to the presented argument for help here - viewpoints are one thing, but when reasoned argument and presentation of standing literature rules is made that is something to pay attention to.


I'd also encourage people to critique others works, even if you're not all that experienced the act of giving critique helps teach the mental mindset of critiquing; helps build the skill so it can be used on ones own work and also helps to give one experience which can then (generally) make it easier to accept critique on ones own work.



Least ways those are my views.

 

[mosaix]

We already have a whole forum for criticism and for pointing out the negative aspects of work,

If that's what's happening, Hex then, in my view, it's totally wrong. Critiquing should mention both the positive and negative aspects of a piece and I think it's rare if there isn't something positive to be found.

I don't think it does a writer any good at all, apart from maybe giving them a false boost to their confidence, for problems with their writing to be ignored.

If a writer isn't prepared to accept advice on what is 'bad' then they should think twice before presenting their work.

 

[crystal haven]

If that's what's happening, Hex then, in my view, it's totally wrong. Critiquing should mention both the positive and negative aspects of a piece and I think it's rare if there isn't something positive to be found.

I don't think it does a writer any good at all, apart from maybe giving them a false boost to their confidence, for problems with their writing to be ignored.

If a writer isn't prepared to accept advice on what is 'bad' then they should think twice before presenting their work.

I agree, that a writer needs to be able to see both aspects of their work. But for a beginner a critique is very hard to take, and could stop somebody in their tracks. Hex is talking about the workshop, so would be looked at as different from a 'proper' critique, surely.

 

[mosaix]

I agree, that a writer needs to be able to see both aspects of their work. But for a beginner a critique is very hard to take, and could stop somebody in their tracks. Hex is talking about the workshop, so would be looked at as different from a 'proper' critique, surely.

Even so, Crystal if everyone follows the first rule of critiquing (be polite) then, even for beginners, it should be a constructive and helpful exercise. And if someone isn't being polite then the author has a right to say so - and so should others.

I see little point in us slapping each other on the back here only to get our kicked in the teeth when we send our stuff to a publisher because our friends on the Chrons weren't honest with us.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

If I see people post too often in the critique thread I tend not to read their posts because it takes time to absorb feedback and adopt it into your writing style. If people spent more time being their own critic, they'd probably improve faster.

As a serial abuser.... I think sometimes you get so much feedback you're not sure, when you absorb it, if there's a sense of did I get it? and a desire/need to check it. But then, once it's absorbed, I think most people slow down. Also, if I'm rewriting, that's when there tends to be one after the other, cos I'm looking at it and wondering if I'm getting what I didn't get the last time. I don't mind people going on a bit of a spluge, provided what they're posting shows they're taking comments on board, - so I've been told my punctuation isn't right, I've tried to fix it, is this better? And this? Before i rewrite the whole thing and find out I'm still not there...

If that's what's happening, Hex then, in my view, it's totally wrong. Critiquing should mention both the positive and negative aspects of a piece and I think it's rare if there isn't something positive to be found.

If a writer isn't prepared to accept advice on what is 'bad' then they should think twice before presenting their work.

I think, and I've said this before in a blog entry somewhere, it depends where the writer is in terms of their confidence and mastery. If they're a beginner then encouragement, direction is what works, if they're expert then peer review, like the critiques board is more what they need. I think, generally, the critiques here are pretty balanced, but they do veer more to what we could do better rather than what's already working, and for people who aren't ready for that, it can be bruising. (I remember texting my other half during my first critique and telling him I was getting globally trashed - he laughed, but that's another conversation)

So, having a safe space, a place where things are knowingly put up with a view to see what's working may encourage people to get feedback, particularly at a stage where discouragement may lead to a real confidence hit.

and then, when we're a little more confident, able to stand up and say, yep, I can take it (provided I have a small corner to lie in later.... and someone to send me cake) then that's where the critiques board comes into it. And I agree, if you want to be a writer, in the golden ring etc, there comes a time when you have to face the brutal truth.

 

[Hex]

I obviously wasn't clear.

I'm not suggesting that being positive about each other's work will act in the same way as the critiques board, and I hope no one would expect it to. I'm not suggesting another forum -- I'm not even suggesting more than a brief exercise for people who are interested in taking part (if you're not, that's fine -- I asked if anyone was interested)

Even when people are being polite, a series of posts pointing out the negatives can be difficult to absorb -- valuable, yes, absolutely. I've learned a lot from critiques, but it's a different exercise to look at someone else's writing and focus on what works for you. I think it would be at least as valuable for the person commenting as for the person whose work is being commented on.

I'm not sure why feelings are so strong about this. Can't we be nice to each other occasionally?

 

[Warren_Paul]

Even so, Crystal if everyone follows the first rule of critiquing (be polite) then, even for beginners, it should be a constructive and helpful exercise. And if someone isn't being polite then the author has a right to say so - and so should others.

I see little point in us slapping each other on the back here only to get kicked in the teeth when we send our stuff to a publisher because our friends on the Chrons weren't honest with us.

I wish everyone did follow that rule -I'm not saying anyone on the Chrons breaks that rule- but it does happen.

I think Hex's idea is for when we have been sent to the firing squad with a critique and need some encouragement to get back on track. It's not about being dishonest, it's about showing it's not as bad as that particular person made it out to be.

From my own experience, I received feedback from one person totally destroying my WIP to the point where it was declared not a single line in it was any good and that it should be thrown away.

I freaked out, regardless of the fact that some of the points raised went completely against all the other feedback I'd received. It hit me hard, and I'd like to have a post as Hex suggests where I can put that same piece up, to make sure that person was genuine in their comments.

Of course I should be able to do this with the normal critique section, but I'm after encouragement, not having what I can improve on pointed out to me.

 

[chrispenycate]

I have a belief that if you're not self confident enough to absorb the relatively mild criticism you get here, when you come face to face with the genuine competitive publishing world you're going to go to pieces. Think of it as "anything that doesn't kill you makes you stronger", on behalf of the story and it's author's ability both to write and extract useful information from diverse and not always clear comments. This has to be useful, even in the self publishing set.

I know when I've put things up for critique it has been to improve them, not to show off how good I was already (and have been sad at how few negative points were brought out, sometimes, particularly when I knew a bit didn't quite work, but couldn't work out why). Perhaps I just suffer from an exaggerated ego that doesn't need its confidence boosting too often.

It is certain my red pen technique concentrates on points that require attention, or could be improved; but could you not assume that, if I did not believe in the potential of the stories I critique, I would not donate the quite considerable time it takes me to do so? (but please, not the inverse. I have simply not been able to dedicate the time necessary for my style of operation recently, nor adequately fulfil my rôle of moderator, nor welcome people in as I was wont to do, nor reply to Springs' technical questions – what, the use of "nor" has practically disappeared from modern writing? With some luck, things will become clearer at the end of the month; assuming I still have internet connection and a computer to connect to it.)

Mutual gratification is something you get from families (not mine, bless 'em) and friends outside the metier. The writing challenges, while not much help for WIPs, are a good exercise in mutual congratulation; there, I'm not allowed to point out comma splices .

 

[crystal haven]

Starting as a tiny fish, in the small pool (the workshop), and moving out into the big sea, (the critique forum) as a brave pike, is how I see it.

I can also see problems with it: people posting work just for the ego boost, so I am not saying it would be easy. But I do think there should be something other than the very deep and scary depths of the critique forum.

Everyone has been very supportive and nice to me. But I have often felt my heart bleed for some people, who are clearly learning, and yes, think they are better than they are, but drowing them is not the way to help them swim. A gentle critique to one person, may feel like a mighty blow to another. We are all different.

 

[The Judge]

I'm really not sure about this, Hex. From a personal point of view I can understand why you would want this, and I'm probably more guilty than most for concentrating on what needs doing in a piece of work, rather than giving praise for what has been done right. But, to be frank, I have seen plenty of critiques here which have offered praise for work which, in my view, is greatly misplaced.

Yes, it's very demoralising to be faced with a list of problems, and I've gone into meltdown, too, in the past. But I take the opposite view from crystal. In my experience if you praise people for a para that works well they won't analyse to see why the next para isn't praised, they won't even consider that it might not have worked, whereas if you do criticise one para and not the rest they can assume that the uncriticised para was OK and they have done something right.

And with my mod's hat on, I'm not sure we want a separate critiques forum within Workshop. If you have an exercise and you want people to join in, by all means start something there, but Critiques is the place for critiquing, not Workshop.

Perhaps a better alternative to a separate thread is simply when you next put up a piece for critiquing specifically ask whether you have done anythng right and await the plaudits there!

And still with my mod's hat on, Warren can I just check -- the "down right brutally nasty" that wasn't received here, was it? As I hope everyone knows, we discourage unpleasant feedback here. As mosaix says, the first rule is to be -- or at least try to be -- polite. If anyone has experienced problems with other members, always tell a mod. We do have some members who are brutally honest (yes, worse than me, even...) but if they have crossed the line into being nasty about it then we need to know.

springs -- I can sympathise with the idea of a safe space for beginners, and I could see the logic in having a separate forum for newbies to post their very first piece of work where we could go gently. But... firstly that's not what Hex is proposing -- she wants a ego-massaging centre everyone can use. Secondly, if someone comes here without first checking how brutal some critiques can be, and expecting to receive a free pass, well...


EDIT: it took so long for me to write this, everybody else has said everything anyway... Hex, if you want to start an exercise in Workshop, do. Make it a proper exercise, though, ie with a purpose (description, narrative, whatever). But don't forget we have the Challenges where we can praise people for their work. The 300 worder is just around the corner, and we can all say whatever we wish there about the pieces. And I would hope that we always are nice to each other there and everywhere else.

 

[mosaix]

Can't we be nice to each other occasionally?

I don't think nice and honest are mutually exclusive.

I hope you don't think I'm not being nice BTW. I think I am being both nice and honest.

 

[Warren_Paul]

And still with my mod's hat on, Warren can I just check -- the "down right brutally nasty" that wasn't received here, was it? As I hope everyone knows, we discourage unpleasant feedback here. As mosaix says, the first rule is to be -- or at least try to be -- polite. If anyone has experienced problems with other members, always tell a mod. We do have some members who are brutally honest (yes, worse than me, even...) but if they have crossed the line into being nasty about it then we need to know.

No, it wasn't from Chrons, TJ. This was a personal critique done for me privately.