Books like your wip?

I definitely think, regardless of what you're telling a publisher, it's a good idea to know this sort of stuff. It does seem to vary a lot from place to place. Tor, for example, also explicitly said not to send a query letter! The only thing they're interested in is your actual work.

That's interesting. What's more interesting is the fact that they still ask for a synopsis + cover letter with a bit about the genre your book belongs to and your biography, which is technically still a query letter, just missing the mini-synopsis paragraph.

Don't send submissions or inquiries by email or fax. We do not respond to emailed or faxed submissions, queries, or inquiries about the status of submissions.

You mean we have to print it out... :eek: ...that's a bit behind the times. I hope they don't expect me to print out the entire manuscript if they request a full. that's like $100 to print.

In other news... :p

I also noticed that HarperCollinsNZ just take full manuscripts, straight of the bat, not partials or samples. I always thought it was a bit strange. Notice recently though they have put up a 'no unsolicited submissions' sign because of all the horrible manuscripts they were getting sent. So now you have to send a query letter.
 
There is a concept of 'product-market fit'. If you google for it, you'll get a bunch of buzz-word filled blogs from venture capitalists, but it basically means your product meeting some demand within a market.

That market doesn't necessarily have to have competitors in it, but if it does, you have to say how your product will differ, how it will 'better fit' the needs of the market etc.

In your case, it is just about thinking what sort of person is going to read your book and why. A useful exercise marketing people do is dream up an imaginary 'typical user' of their product:

"Thomas is 35, urban professional, married, no kids. Travels to work in the city by train during rush hour, and prefers to read the paper in the mornings if it isn't so crowded that he can't even get the damn thing open without poking someone's eye out. Otherwise, will read or play games on an ipad on the evening commute home.

"Thomas feels the 'hero' role is staid and overdone, having seen too many hollywood comic book film adaptations, and is looking for a good anti-hero to balance. Likewise, his office-drone-worker job makes him yearn for an everyman he can sympathyse with"

etc etc

Of course, this is just to visualise and humanise otherwise bland statistics about the 'target demographic'.

Also isn't it quite dangerous reading something a bit too close to your own writing as you may find yourself subconsciously immitating it?

Edit: I wouldn't talk to a publisher about any of this stuff as you're basically second guessing them / trying to do their job for them and they're almost certainly better at it than you. You don't necessarily have to think of a 'typical reader' or the sort of person who would enjoy your book in marketing terms and marketing speak either, just have an idea of who, aside from you / 'people like me', would read it
 
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That's interesting. What's more interesting is the fact that they still ask for a synopsis + cover letter with a bit about the genre your book belongs to and your biography, which is technically still a query letter, just missing the mini-synopsis paragraph.

It's not a query letter because it's accompanying the manuscript.


You mean we have to print it out... :eek: ...that's a bit behind the times. I hope they don't expect me to print out the entire manuscript if they request a full. that's like $100 to print.

Yes, you have to print the entire thing. Although it shouldn't cost you anywhere near $100. Anyone who's serious about writing should own a decent printer. Which means a mono-laser. (You can get one for a little more than $100). I think I worked out it costs me about 4c a page to print my manuscript. At 250,000 words it's about 600 pages, so about $24.00.

The expensive thing is shipping it to the US.


I also noticed that HarperCollinsNZ just take full manuscripts, straight of the bat, not partials or samples. I always thought it was a bit strange. Notice recently though they have put up a 'no unsolicited submissions' sign because of all the horrible manuscripts they were getting sent. So now you have to send a query letter.


HarperCollins used to take only the first three chapters, and for non-fiction (which they take unsolicited) it's still only the first three chapters. They only take the entire manuscript for adult fiction, but it has to come from an agent (no query letter).
 
Tor's archaic practises are a bit of a nightmare for a non-American, actually. They don't do emailed responses, so you have to include a self-addressed envelope in your package, for the reply. Fine.

If you live in the USA.

You won't believe the adventure I had to go through to get that sorted! You could write a high-fantasy trilogy about it. I basically had to eventually get someone in the US to post me an envelope with another identical envelope inside it, so I could post the second envelope back to the US with my submission, so they could post it back to me with their reply.

When all they needed was a "no reply" email address where they could send out a standard-form response email (either yes or no) with a click of a button. From Tor. One of the largest and most successful sci-fi/fantasy publishers in the world.

And it's precisely this sort of thing which is why I turned my attention on ePublishing, because the traditional publishers, just like the film studios and the network broadcasters and the record labels are dinosaurs who don't understand the way the internet has totally rewritten all of their models. They're afraid of the new technology, and they're reluctant to get involved in it, and for those willing to take the plunge before them there's a fortune to be made.
 
Yes, you have to print the entire thing. Although it shouldn't cost you anywhere near $100. Anyone who's serious about writing should own a decent printer. Which means a mono-laser. (You can get one for a little more than $100). I think I worked out it costs me about 4c a page to print my manuscript. At 250,000 words it's about 600 pages, so about $24.00.

The expensive thing is shipping it to the US.

Maybe so, I don't have a laser printer though, just an inkjet. -maybe time to trade it in if laser printers are so cheap these days. Cartridges cost $25-30 a bop, printing a manuscript that size would easily use 2 cartridges, and then some + paper costs. But I was talking about commercial printing -such as Warehouse Stationary, which is .20 cents per page.

Edit: I'd imagine formatted correctly 250k words would take way more than 600 pages. My 133k manuscript takes 560... :confused:

GRRM writes books that size and he always talks about how his manuscripts are 1,500 or so pages long.
 
Maybe so, I don't have a laser printer though, just an inkjet. -maybe time to trade it in if laser printers are so cheap these days. Cartridges cost $25-30 a bop, printing a manuscript that size would easily use 2 cartridges, and then some + paper costs. But I was talking about commercial printing -such as Warehouse Stationary, which is .20 cents per page.

Get a laser. You will wonder why you didn't make the shift earlier. :)



Edit: I'd imagine formatted correctly 250k words would take way more than 600 pages. My 133k manuscript takes 560... :confused:

Sorry you're right, yeah, more like 900 pages. Although my 113K manuscript is only 440 pages correctly formatted...


GRRM writes books that size and he always talks about how his manuscripts are 1,500 or so pages long.

Martin's shortest book is 280K...
 
Get a laser. You will wonder why you didn't make the shift earlier. :)

Absolutely. My mono laser was given to me by a friend about six years ago, with a toner cartridge he said was on its last legs. I haven't changed it yet, after printing hundreds and hundreds of pages.
 
Although my 113K manuscript is only 440 pages correctly formatted...

Lots of descriptive narrative?

I try not to have big paragraphs, which means for me, it pushes the page count up a bit. Lots of dialogue can push the page count up too, without the word count following by much.


I will think about laser printer, although I'm not sure I'll be sending manuscripts to many places that require me to print them out anyway.
 
Lots of descriptive narrative?

I try not to have big paragraphs, which means for me, it pushes the page count up a bit. Lots of dialogue can push the page count up too, without the word count following by much.


I will think about laser printer, although I'm not sure I'll be sending manuscripts to many places that require me to print them out anyway.


Fair enough. I edit on paper, so even if everyone I was submitting to took digital copies, I'd still use a printer extensively.
 
There is a funny thing about fitting a novel or a story into the market.

Many (many) years ago I completed my second novel, a massive story coming in at over 1000 pages. I did a second, then third draft and left it for a while. (This is about 20 years ago now) and submitted to a publisher.

I had a very nice letter back saying it was well written, was a lot of fun, but they did not think it was marketable. Y'see one of the main story lines was a romance between a human in his late teens/early twenties and a 300 year old vampire.

Apparently that kind of thing would never work.

Ever.
 
In my opinion I think we, as aspiring writers, should aim to write the story as we need to tell it; to do otherwise is going to feel forced and won't be as good.

Yes, that's true when you're writing the book - but we're talking about the stage when you've finished the book and are submitting it to agents and/or publishers. At that point you need to have your business hat on, not your artist one.

@Hex - I didn't query mine, as I pitched in person to an editor and it got picked up from there, but I described it as similar in flavour to Scott Lynch and Joe Abercrombie but less testosterone-soaked :)

To find books similar to yours, Google for book review blogs - there are loads of them, covering many of the upcoming SFF releases. And there are still a few of those old-fashioned things called book shops, where I believe you can look at new books for free and read their back cover copy...
 
Hi everyone (I know -- I'm failing to be on holiday -- don't mock me too mercilessly)

I am aware that it's useful to be able to situate one's work in the context of recent books that have come out so that it's clear what market you're aiming at (or something along those lines)

How do you do that?

You look what's on the book shelves, buy a few examples; check Amazon charts for bestsellers in your genre; see what books in your genre people on chrons are posting about that are relatively recent.
 
There is a funny thing about fitting a novel or a story into the market.

Many (many) years ago I completed my second novel, a massive story coming in at over 1000 pages. I did a second, then third draft and left it for a while. (This is about 20 years ago now) and submitted to a publisher.

I had a very nice letter back saying it was well written, was a lot of fun, but they did not think it was marketable. Y'see one of the main story lines was a romance between a human in his late teens/early twenties and a 300 year old vampire.

Apparently that kind of thing would never work.

Ever.

Read a story written by Steve Uttley (IIRC). His character spoke at length about the questionable ethics of those who cloned dinosaurs. Steve was told no story about cloned dinosaurs would ever be successful. Apparently that kind of thing would never work.

Ever.

Several years later, a writer named Michael Crichton...
 
Jules Verne in the 1860's got told by his editor:

"In this piece, there is not a single issue concerning the real future that is properly resolved, no critique that hasn’t already been made and remade before. I am surprised at you ... [it is] lacklustre and lifeless."

In this work ("Paris in the Twentieth Century) he predicted:
-Mutal assured destruction
-Skyscrapers
-Petrol-powered automobiles
-High-speed trains
-Calculators & Computers
-A worldwide "telegraphic" communications networks (Internet-ish)
-Electric chairs (criminals "executed by electric charge")

Also, I believe it predicted the soul-numbing boredom of modern work as well.

So he put it in a safe and forgot about it
.
.
.
It eventually got published in 1994 when it became fact, more or less..
 
Jules Verne in the 1860's got told by his editor:

"In this piece, there is not a single issue concerning the real future that is properly resolved, no critique that hasn’t already been made and remade before. I am surprised at you ... [it is] lacklustre and lifeless."

In this work ("Paris in the Twentieth Century) he predicted:
-Mutal assured destruction
-Skyscrapers
-Petrol-powered automobiles
-High-speed trains
-Calculators & Computers
-A worldwide "telegraphic" communications networks (Internet-ish)
-Electric chairs (criminals "executed by electric charge")

Also, I believe it predicted the soul-numbing boredom of modern work as well.

So he put it in a safe and forgot about it
.
.
.
It eventually got published in 1994 when it became fact, more or less..

So, it was published as a prediction of the past? Well, I guess anyone can predict the future.
 
We see so many cases of where opinions overrule sound judgement. I have to wonder if those people who turned the books down kick themselves afterwards?
 
@Anne Lyle -- thank you. That's exactly what I was looking for. Hearing the comparison makes me look forward to April 5th even more.
@I, Brian too -- I can't believe I didn't think (and I really really didn't think) of proper book shops.

@WP -- What's the difference between an opinion and sound judgement? (You have an opinion, I have sound judgement, he has a prejudice? ;) )
 
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Yes, maybe prejudice is more the word.

What I was meaning was: being able to tell what's good, regardless of what you personally like. I think sometimes people let their own personal tastes get in the way, and say something is terrible, just because they personally didn't like it.

Just because you don't like something, doesn't make it bad.


For instance: I don't like sci-fi, but I'm not about to go saying all sci-fi is rubbish, because I know there are some very good sci-fi writers out there, just not what I want to read. If I was to say that, I'd get half a dozen people jumping up in arms at me.

says the person who is writing a sci-fi novel on the side... :rolleyes:
 
I have a werewolf book coming out in May that is very much like the movie Splash (substitute characters, of course). It also has a Beauty and the Beast theme, with the genders reversed.

Chris
 

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