Varys again (ADWD and beyond)

[Coragem]

Well, I know there are other threads covering Varys since ADWD. Still, I'm intrigued and interested in further discussion.

The epilogue to ADWD certainly got me speculating:

** In the epilogue there's mention of the "bad black" cat that kills ravens. Then there's the children with the knives. Is Varys a warg of some sort, controlling animals and maybe children too?
** Kevan (while he's busy dying) mentions that Varys' voice sounds deeper than normal. So, is the eunuch thing all an act; something to conceal Varys' true identity?
** If Varys is concealing a hidden identity, then who? If he were a warg, I'd be thinking a northman ... but that wouldn't fit his apparent support for Aegon. Could Rhaegar have survived ... or maybe another Targaryen (e.g., a ******* or Aerys?)
** Probably nothing, but the name "Varys" reminds me a little of the names Viserys. (Of course, the Viserys of A Game of Thrones is very dead, unless he wasn't the true Viserys).

Anyway, my overactive imagination ... Other thoughts?

Coragem.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Plenty of ideas about it myself, but will wait to see if Imp answers your thread first (you'l see why).

 

[The Imp]

Well, I know there are other threads covering Varys since ADWD. Still, I'm intrigued and interested in further discussion.

The epilogue to ADWD certainly got me speculating:

** In the epilogue there's mention of the "bad black" cat that kills ravens. Then there's the children with the knives. Is Varys a warg of some sort, controlling animals and maybe children too?
** Kevan (while he's busy dying) mentions that Varys' voice sounds deeper than normal. So, is the eunuch thing all an act; something to conceal Varys' true identity?
** If Varys is concealing a hidden identity, then who? If he were a warg, I'd be thinking a northman ... but that wouldn't fit his apparent support for Aegon. Could Rhaegar have survived ... or maybe another Targaryen (e.g., a ******* or Aerys?)
** Probably nothing, but the name "Varys" reminds me a little of the names Viserys. (Of course, the Viserys of A Game of Thrones is very dead, unless he wasn't the true Viserys).

Anyway, my overactive imagination ... Other thoughts?

Coragem.

One of my favorite subjects and favorite characters. I started a thread a while back where I speculated that Varys might be a Faceless Man, or at the very least, connected with them is some way.

find it here

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/533049-new-crackpot-theory-the-faceless-men.html

As you pointed out, the name Varys sounds both Targ-like, and also sound like "varies", implying something about change IMO. The idea of his "little birds" giving him all of his information also seems to be unbelievable. He just knows to much, has access to too much information and too many places. I think there's more to him than meets the eye. His remarkable ability to change his appearance. the fact that we have only his word for the "fact" that he is a eunuch. His connection to illyrio, and Illyrio's silver-blond haired wife.

I also found the Kevan chapter revealing. Who are "the children" that Varys speaks of when he says that's his reason for doing what he is doing? Certainly not the children of the small folk. Or the children of even the nobles. Does he mean the children/child slain by Gregor? Does he mean The Children of the forest?

Your point about Tommen seeing "the bad cat" is very interesting. Varys being a Warg would explain a lot. I look forward to seeing responses. As I said, I love this topic

 

[Coragem]

and also sound like "varies", implying something about change IMO.

His connection to illyrio, and Illyrio's silver-blond haired wife.

The two observations above interested me a great deal!

It's funny, reading ASOIAF before ADWD, I had Varys down as one of the minor characters -- a character who'd become more involved in the story than GRRM originally intended. We've heard GRRM say that one of the reasons why the series grew into an epic (rather than a trilogy) was that the "minor" characters refused to just stand and hold their spears (or whatever).
When I heard that I had in mind "minor" characters like The Hound, who really captivated me, and Varys.

It seems, however, that Varys may have been a main player all along.

Coragem.

 

[The Imp]

The two observations above interested me a great deal!

It's funny, reading ASOIAF before ADWD, I had Varys down as one of the minor characters -- a character who'd become more involved in the story than GRRM originally intended. We've heard GRRM say that one of the reasons why the series grew into an epic (rather than a trilogy) was that the "minor" characters refused to just stand and hold their spears (or whatever).
When I heard that I had in mind "minor" characters like The Hound, who really captivated me, and Varys.

It seems, however, that Varys may have been a main player all along.

Coragem.

I have thought of Varys as being a main player since that meeting with Illyrio under the Red Keep, so so long ago in aGoT. I've always wondered why Illyrio needed to come to king's Landing, and I now think it had something to do with Jaqan H'Ghar possibly. The timing just seems too coincidental to me.

Let me also say that while I've never fully beleived Varys' backstory, I am even less convinced after aDWD. I just don't buy the way he supposedly ended up on the Small Council. The wording of this passage, and the way that Roy Dotrice readt it has me very suspicious/

"How is it that the Spider became so dear to you?"
"We were young together, two green boys in Pentos."
"Varys came from Myr."
"So he did. I met him not long after he arrived, one step ahead of the slavers.

Roy kind of did an ahem just before he said "So he did". I don't think it was an accident. In any event, it seems as if the Fat Man and possibly Varys have been lying about his origins.

Don't stop me, I'm on a roll now . How convenient is it that Varys is hairless? Has his eye color ever been mentioned? I need to check that.

More to come. Maybe.

OK, if Varys is a warg would that mean he was from the North/ Would that tie him to the Old Gods, and make his comment about "the children" really be "The Children (of the Forerst)?

 

[NenadBulaja]

Yeah Varyis is Imps obsession all right.

Theories about his origin and motives aside, it seems to me that Varys's role is shifting in ASoIaF. At the beginning he was mysterious "Spider", best informed (with Littlefinger) member of the council, with smooth appearance and speech. First glimpse at possible motives and fact that he may be "more than meets the aye" is famous talk between him and Illyrio. But still there was no notion that he may resort to more violent measures other than trading with information's. He seemed helpless when Ned was betrayed and captured. Then his coming down the dungeon, and talks with Ned. It almost seemed that Ned's capture was against his plans, and that he was trying to "make the best of it", convincing Ned to bend, and save his family. Which he actually succeed. But than came Joffrey's decision to decapitate Ned despite his false confession. For me THAT is the turning point, from which it seems that Varys started using more drastic measures (and against Lannisters). Culminating in taking up crossbow and personally putting a bolt in Ser Kevan. If it continues this way, he may very well turn out to be FM.

 

[Coragem]

Roy kind of did an ahem just before he said "So he did".

How convenient is it that Varys is hairless? Has his eye color ever been mentioned? I need to check that.

Very, very, very interesting. What you're saying really has me thinking Targaryen.

...AND it'd make sense since it seems that the Targaryens are absolutely central what's coming. GRRM is, of course, building a picture of there being something special about "the blood of the dragon". Something that creates resistance to heat and illness, and power of dragons, and which must be maintained through in-breeding, and can involved madness (possibly as a result of the in-breeding, or not).

ICE: The northman / Starks have special, "super-human" gifts (e.g., Bran, wargs, the power of the wierwoods).
FIRE: The Targaryens have their own special gifts (as above).

Maybe both are central to the resolution of the story -- the conflict between the fire god and the "other".

Coragem.

 

[grip junky]

Could he be from the line of Bittersteel?

 

[The Imp]

Could he be from the line of Bittersteel?

If that were the case, would he necessarily want Aegon onthe Iron Throne. Or Viserys for that matter. unless he thought them weak enough to be able to control.

 

[The Imp]

Yeah Varyis is Imps obsession all right.

Theories about his origin and motives aside, it seems to me that Varys's role is shifting in ASoIaF. At the beginning he was mysterious "Spider", best informed (with Littlefinger) member of the council, with smooth appearance and speech. First glimpse at possible motives and fact that he may be "more than meets the aye" is famous talk between him and Illyrio. But still there was no notion that he may resort to more violent measures other than trading with information's. He seemed helpless when Ned was betrayed and captured. Then his coming down the dungeon, and talks with Ned. It almost seemed that Ned's capture was against his plans, and that he was trying to "make the best of it", convincing Ned to bend, and save his family. Which he actually succeed. But than came Joffrey's decision to decapitate Ned despite his false confession. For me THAT is the turning point, from which it seems that Varys started using more drastic measures (and against Lannisters). Culminating in taking up crossbow and personally putting a bolt in Ser Kevan. If it continues this way, he may very well turn out to be FM.

I might be obesessed with the series. Many subjects interest me, and I find Varys to be one of the more intriging.

I strongly disagree with the bolded part of your post. The conversation between Varys and illyrio makes a few things crystal clear IMO-

1- They were co-conspiritors and were planning the takeover of Westeros by Targs who would be aided by the Dothraki

"Too soon, too soon," the voice with the accent complained. "What good is war now? We are not ready. Delay."
"As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?"

"Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages."

"If he does not bestir himself soon, it may be too late," the stout man in the steel cap said. "This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was.

2- Varys was responsible for the death of Jon Arryn

"If one Hand can die, why not a second?" replied the man with the accent and the forked yellow beard. "You have danced the dance before, my friend."

3- events were moving faster, and spinning out of control

Delay, you say. Make haste, I reply. Even the finest of jugglers cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever."
"You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer.

These are not the words of a simple gatherer of information. They are the words of a co-conspirator, someone who was making plans, not following orders.

It's also interesting that Illyrio refers to Varys as a Wizard and then later a Sorcerer. Figures of speech.maybe.

As for his conversation with Ned. Illyrio, at the very least, wanted Ned dead. I think Varys still had use for him. Joffrey was the wild card that no one counted on.

Just another thought here about Varys. Arya, who was/is sharp as a tack, didn't recognize Varys. She knew there was something familiar about him though, probably from her training with Syrio.


"asked the torchbearer, a stout man in a leather half cape. Even in heavy boots, his feet seemed to glide soundlessly over the ground. A round scarred face and a stubble of dark beard showed under his steel cap, and he wore mail over boiled leather, and a dirk and shortsword at his belt. It seemed to Arya there was something oddly familiar about him."

It wasn't his face that she recognized

Then there's the whole issue of a FM just HAPPENING to show up in KL right about the time that Illyrio did, and also the First Sword of Braavos. I'm not a big believer in those sorts of coincidences in this or any other world.

 

[NenadBulaja]

OK, so obsession is maybe too strong word, but you definitively have most ideas about Varys on this forum licensed

1 - No complains here, I also think it is crystal clear what they intend to do. Only there is no hint of them starting war, only notion that it is inevitable for gaining of Iron Throne.

2 - Again, no notion that Varys is directly responsible for removal of the Hand, as "danced the dance before" might mean that he killed someone before, not necessarily that he killed Arryn.

3 - I agree, and that is one of the reasons he started using more direct measures and himself.

Well, actually idea of him being sorcerer somehow sits better with me than FM theory. Will post more about it later.

 

[grip junky]

If that were the case, would he necessarily want Aegon onthe Iron Throne. Or Viserys for that matter. unless he thought them weak enough to be able to control.

I get lost in the time line, has it been enough time that blood is blood. Varys knows no one is going to put him on the throne. Aegon is with the Golden Co and before it is all said and done I think he ends up with Blakfyre.

 

[Needle]

- Varys was responsible for the death of Jon Arryn

"If one Hand can die, why not a second?" replied the man with the accent and the forked yellow beard. "You have danced the dance before, my friend."

Just one question, I understand the implication here, but I was under the impression that Littlefinger was the one most responsible for Jon Arryn's death? More info please.

 

[grip junky]

Just one question, I understand the implication here, but I was under the impression that Littlefinger was the one most responsible for Jon Arryn's death? More info please.

I thought that Jons wife killedhim because, he was going to foster out their son?

 

[The Imp]

Just one question, I understand the implication here, but I was under the impression that Littlefinger was the one most responsible for Jon Arryn's death? More info please.

I'm just going by what Illyrio seemed to mean qwhen he said "you have danced that dance before" I know that Littlefinger SEEMS to be the one responsible, but Littlefinger loves gold almost as much as he loves himself. Illyrio/Varys would certainly have a lot of cheese, err, gold to spread around.

 

[viZion]

Just one question, I understand the implication here, but I was under the impression that Littlefinger was the one most responsible for Jon Arryn's death? More info please.

There's another way to take that statement. Let me try to rephrase that statement to make it clearer:

Illyrio: Someone killed Jon Arryn. If he can die, then it shouldn't be a problem to kill Eddard. I mean, you do have experience in playing the Game of Thrones. You can pull it off the same way someone else pulled off killing Arryn.

I.e. that statement can be taken two ways. The first way is the way Imp took it which implies that Varys killed Jon Arryn. The second way is the way I've always taken it which implies that Varys should kill Eddard because it's so easy to kill off a Hand. Of course, in the end Varys ends up killing off Tywin and Kevan. I don't believe he really intended for Eddard to die.

 

[The Imp]

OK, so obsession is maybe too strong word, but you definitively have most ideas about Varys on this forum licensed

1 - No complains here, I also think it is crystal clear what they intend to do. Only there is no hint of them starting war, only notion that it is inevitable for gaining of Iron Throne.

2 - Again, no notion that Varys is directly responsible for removal of the Hand, as "danced the dance before" might mean that he killed someone before, not necessarily that he killed Arryn.

3 - I agree, and that is one of the reasons he started using more direct measures and himself.

Well, actually idea of him being sorcerer somehow sits better with me than FM theory. Will post more about it later.

I don't think you've gone back very far in the pages of this forum if you think all I talk about is Varys

Their plan was to have Dany marry Khal Drogo, and in return, Drogo would have his army help Vierys take back the Iron Throne. This sounds like starting a war to me.

 

[The Imp]

There's another way to take that statement. Let me try to rephrase that statement to make it clearer:

Illyrio: Someone killed Jon Arryn. If he can die, then it shouldn't be a problem to kill Eddard. I mean, you do have experience in playing the Game of Thrones. You can pull it off the same way someone else pulled off killing Arryn.

I.e. that statement can be taken two ways. The first way is the way Imp took it which implies that Varys killed Jon Arryn. The second way is the way I've always taken it which implies that Varys should kill Eddard because it's so easy to kill off a Hand. Of course, in the end Varys ends up killing off Tywin and Kevan. I don't believe he really intended for Eddard to die.

The quote is sufficiently ambigous so that it can have more than one interpretation. I choose to believe that Illyrio is talking about a dance that involved killing off Arryn, either by manipulating Littlefinger into having it done, it operhaps by the outright buying of him.

 

[NenadBulaja]

I don't think you've gone back very far in the pages of this forum if you think all I talk about is Varys

Their plan was to have Dany marry Khal Drogo, and in return, Drogo would have his army help Vierys take back the Iron Throne. This sounds like starting a war to me.

No, not only Varys, but most of ideas on forum connected to him are also in some way connected to you

Well, actually, Drogo's army would help Dany take the Throne, Varys and Illyrio's motives are yet to be seen (is it to help some Targaryen or themselves or some third party). If Varys is targeting the Throne, it is another theory altogether.

 

[grip junky]

Their plan was to have Dany marry Khal Drogo, and in return, Drogo would have his army help Vierys take back the Iron Throne. This sounds like starting a war to me.

Do you think this was the real plan?