Varys: What's his motivation? (Mild ADWD spoilers)

[Eulalia]

Thanks!
Really great discussion and play with the ideas!

Also, doesn't Illyrio say something to Tyrion about there being some bonds more important than money, or some such?

Illyrio smiling through his forked beard could indicate that the bloodline was preserved through the female line via Serra.

I think Ros confirmed that the Varys family jewels are gone, but the TV show is not the ultimate source. Who knows what those FM can do.

 

[A-roc]

Pg. 74 as well, "She will or she will not"..."I told you my little friend, not all that a man does is done for gain. Believe as you wish, but even fat old fools like me have friends, and debts of affection to repay."

Illyrio may not be referring to Dany, rather Serra and Varys via Aegon...

 

[juleska]

There has to be some reason Illyrio and Varys are doing what they are doing. Illyrio seems very sentimental about Serra and was more handsome when he was younger. Varys said he was working "for the children".

Aegon could be the "mummer's dragon". (Vary's Blackfyre nephew, made all the more important if he has no nads).

Didn't Henry VII have a very slender claim to the English throne and cross the seas to become King of England by right of conquest and married the Yorkish princess, thus uniting the two contesting houses? Not that GRRM is slavish to history--still.

This got me thinking.....they seem to more or less be pulling off Fake Arya, I keep waiting for someone to figure out who she really is but it seems all the northmen who would really know her are dead.....except for Jon, who is only mostly dead.

Anyway, given how easily they faked Jeyne for Arya, it does seem suspicious that I as a reader would have so readily accepted Young Griff for baby Aegon. There's only two things that still give me belief that he truly is who he says he is....and that's Varys' apparent involvement and Rhaegar's words to Dany in the HOTU.

 

[Raul]

on one of Barristan Selmy's POV in the end of ADWD he remembers that during year of false winter when Rhaegar won that tournament, Varys gave informed Aerys that Rhaegar is using that tournament to meet with rebellious lords and thats why Aerys came to that tournament too. was that info fake or correct? If fake then what were Varys motives?

 

[A-roc]

Raul, pretty sure Varys was laying initial pieces to soften the landing for Aegon. Unless he wasn't even born yet. Either way, you can see the domino effect which ultimately ended up with Roberts rebellion.

On the recent episode Oberyn placed Varys's accent from Lys, but I always thought he was from Myr. I confirmed in AWoFaI that Varys is from Lys, which is further evidence he's related to Serra tightening the bond between Illyrio and Varys. Also, why do you think Varys shaves his head? I'm guessing because his hair would be white revealing his Blackfyre blood.

 

[Boaz]

A-roc, I like conspiracies, but getting to the truth of Varys' past is problematic at best. I don't disagree with you, but it's impossible to know now.

I wonder why that man chose Varys. He cut off his manhood and burned it... if Varys can be believed. But why did the man choose Varys? Because he was cute? No. Because he was smart? No. White hair, i.e. Valyrian, or specifically Targaryen blood, may be the best answer.

I've always liked the idea that Varys shortened his name from Visaerys. Could Serra's name have been Saera? And why does Varys seem so intent upon a revival of the Targaryen regime?

But you're saying that Varys is a Blackfyre. Is Aegon fake? Is he really a Blackfyre? Could Varys and Illyrio be conspiring to finally place a Blackfyre upon the Iron Throne? I doubt Connington would go along with this if he thought Aegon was fake... unless he really wanted to just cause mayhem for his broken life.

Edit: Buzzed posting is drunk posting.

 

[juleska]

Well if we take his motivations at face value when he tells us he wants what is best for the realm....I don't think it would matter to him if the actual person sitting on the throne was an actual Targ or an actual anything....so long as he (or she) was the most fit to rule the realm in peace. So he could very well be conspiring to put a fake Targ on the throne since they've controlled this one virtually since birth and have taught him all he needs to know to rule well (so they think).

If Young Griff is not really Aegon (and I'm not convinced he is) then I don't think Jon Connington knows that he's fake.

 

[Reivax26]

I may be crazy but I think that the leader of the monks that Brienne and Pod meet is actually Rhaegar. He mentions that he was in the battle, they mention that the rubies from Rhaegar's chestplate were found along the banks of the river and he keeps his head shaved all the time, hiding his hair.


I think that Robert wounded him on the trident and everyone thought that he died. It was mentioned that he was a solitary kid and that he loved reading. Imagine being him and being rescued by the monks on that little island. His army is crushed, his family murdered and everyone thinks he's dead.


So he decides to live out the remainder of his life on the island, until word gets to him that Aegon has landed with the Golden Company. I would not be surprised at all if he makes another appearance in the books and this is revealed.


My 2 cents

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I may be crazy but I think that the leader of the monks that Brienne and Pod meet is actually Rhaegar. He mentions that he was in the battle, they mention that the rubies from Rhaegar's chestplate were found along the banks of the river and he keeps his head shaved all the time, hiding his hair.


I think that Robert wounded him on the trident and everyone thought that he died. It was mentioned that he was a solitary kid and that he loved reading. Imagine being him and being rescued by the monks on that little island. His army is crushed, his family murdered and everyone thinks he's dead.


So he decides to live out the remainder of his life on the island, until word gets to him that Aegon has landed with the Golden Company. I would not be surprised at all if he makes another appearance in the books and this is revealed.


My 2 cents

Apparently, in a chat with fans, GRRM had stated Rhaegar was cremated.

[What happened to Rhaegar's body?]

Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.

 

[Boaz]

That's interesting. And it smacks of Jon Arryn.

My guess is that Robert would have preferred to do something shameful to Rhaegar's corpse in retaliation for Lyanna. I could imagine him sending a piece of Rhaegar's body to each of the Seven Kingdoms; mounting his head on a spike atop KL; burying him in an unmarked grave; or even crucifying the body and leaving it for the crows.

Jon Arryn, on the other hand, knew the political ramifications of giving Rhaegar full military and familial burial honors. Such an act would tell Houses Lannister, Martell, Tyrell, Darry, and all the Targaryen loyalists that the rebels were reasonable and honorable. It also let all the rebels know the goals were order, not chaos.... justice, not vengeance... healing, not plunder.

Edit: How much of Varys' motivations come from the fall of the Targaryens? We don't know.

But we do know that Varys, Pycelle, Robert, Eddard, Jaime, BFS, Tywin, Stannis, Mace, Jon Connington, Davos, Alliser Thorne, Gregor, Walder Frey, Hoster, Brynden, Catelyn and Lysa were all caught up in the rebellion. With the exception of Mace, they're all intriguing characters. So by extension, I consider the deceased... the Mad King, Elia, Rhaegar, Jon Arryn, Willem Darry, Jon Darry, Arthur Dayne, Ashara Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Brandon Stark, Prince Llewyn, Rossart, and Chelsted... intriguing characters as well. I'd love to know even more about Rhaegar, Elia, and Arthur.

And then there's Howland Reed. He was caught up in the rebellion, we know he's alive, and yet we've glimpsed neither hide nor hair of him.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

That's interesting. And it smacks of Jon Arryn.

My guess is that Robert would have preferred to do something shameful to Rhaegar's corpse in retaliation for Lyanna. I could imagine him sending a piece of Rhaegar's body to each of the Seven Kingdoms; mounting his head on a spike atop KL; burying him in an unmarked grave; or even crucifying the body and leaving it for the crows.

Jon Arryn, on the other hand, knew the political ramifications of giving Rhaegar full military and familial burial honors. Such an act would tell Houses Lannister, Martell, Tyrell, Darry, and all the Targaryen loyalists that the rebels were reasonable and honorable. It also let all the rebels know the goals were order, not chaos.... justice, not vengeance... healing, not plunder.

Edit: How much of Varys' motivations come from the fall of the Targaryens? We don't know.

But we do know that Varys, Pycelle, Robert, Eddard, Jaime, BFS, Tywin, Stannis, Mace, Jon Connington, Davos, Alliser Thorne, Gregor, Walder Frey, Hoster, Brynden, Catelyn and Lysa were all caught up in the rebellion. With the exception of Mace, they're all intriguing characters. So by extension, I consider the deceased... the Mad King, Elia, Rhaegar, Jon Arryn, Willem Darry, Jon Darry, Arthur Dayne, Ashara Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Brandon Stark, Prince Llewyn, Rossart, and Chelsted... intriguing characters as well. I'd love to know even more about Rhaegar, Elia, and Arthur.

And then there's Howland Reed. He was caught up in the rebellion, we know he's alive, and yet we've glimpsed neither hide nor hair of him.

It also made me think of Jon Arryn.

I have a feeling that a lot of secrets will in the end have to be revealed through Howland Reed. (R+L=J ;D)

I was always hoping for more information on Lyanna and Rhaegar. :/

As for Varys, what he makes me wonder the most isn't so much his motivation (though I do wonder about it) as it is the extent of his influence.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I have a feeling that a lot of secrets will in the end have to be revealed through Howland Reed. (R+L=J ;D)

I cannot express in words how excited I am to have Howland Reed show up in the story, and I am also terribly afraid of being let down.

one of the things that makes this story so great, but also so bloody frustrating, is that you can't trust anything the characters say unless they are POV characters. What would be really nice would be to have an epilogue chapter from Varys in which he unburdens himself of all his secrets and then dies. I don't really want to see him dead, but it's the only way to find out what he knows. Martin doesn't seem about to add him as a POV character.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

No! I don't want him to die, Arsten. I want Varys to live.

Well, I can say I honestly understand Martin there. Varys simply knows too much to be a viable POV character.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I don't want him dead either, I just want to know what going on in that head of his. Maybe he can be the final epilogue in book 7 (8?).

Also, something I have been thinking about for the past 15 minutes or so is, who is working for Varys? I know he has his network of little spies, but who is finding and training them? is he getting them shipped from Pentos?

I also have a theory that Qyburn is now working for Varys, at least since he has been in the city. He told Cersei that, upon being appointed Master of Whispers, that some of Varys' old spies turned up and offered secrets, but that seems suspect, considering the majority of Varys' spies (if not all of them) are still working for Varys. It's possible he is just feeding Qyburn information as he sees fit, but it would be more beneficial if Varys was also able to get information out of Qyburn in return.

Another Puzzler is that Varys, apparently acting on his own impulse, protected Gendry from cersei by sending him away with Yoren. Is he only cares about Targs, why is he protecting a Baratheon *******?

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I don't want him dead either, I just want to know what going on in that head of his. Maybe he can be the final epilogue in book 7 (8?).

Also, something I have been thinking about for the past 15 minutes or so is, who is working for Varys? I know he has his network of little spies, but who is finding and training them? is he getting them shipped from Pentos?

I think as much can be inferred from his talk with Illyrio in book 1. Apparently, Illyrio is shipping them in.

I also have a theory that Qyburn is now working for Varys, at least since he has been in the city. He told Cersei that, upon being appointed Master of Whispers, that some of Varys' old spies turned up and offered secrets, but that seems suspect, considering the majority of Varys' spies (if not all of them) are still working for Varys. It's possible he is just feeding Qyburn information as he sees fit, but it would be more beneficial if Varys was also able to get information out of Qyburn in return.

He is probably just using his birds to tell Qyburn what he wants him to know. Qyburn isn't a very reliable ally for him.

Another Puzzler is that Varys, apparently acting on his own impulse, protected Gendry from cersei by sending him away with Yoren. Is he only cares about Targs, why is he protecting a Baratheon *******?

Because Genry is also proof, son of Robert Baratheon and golden haired prostitute.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I think as much can be inferred from his talk with Illyrio in book 1. Apparently, Illyrio is shipping them in.

oh yeah. Thank you for that.

He is probably just using his birds to tell Qyburn what he wants him to know. Qyburn isn't a very reliable ally for him.

I'm not so sure about that. Before Qyburn comes to KL he has no alliance to any house. He is part of the band that cuts Jaime's hand off, and now he is best buddies with Cersei. He has access to places Varys can only go in secret, and as a member of the small council he can influence discussions and descisions in ways that Varys isn't able to any more. I'm not saying Varys trusts him, but I do think he might be using him. After all, Qyburn IS helping Varys keep Cersei in power.

Because Genry is also proof, son of Robert Baratheon and golden haired prostitute.

Yes but why does Varys care about that? why does he need proof that Cersei's children aren't legitimate?

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

oh yeah. Thank you for that.

Anytime. ^^

I'm not so sure about that. Before Qyburn comes to KL he has no alliance to any house. He is part of the band that cuts Jaime's hand off, and now he is best buddies with Cersei. He has access to places Varys can only go in secret, and as a member of the small council he can influence discussions and descisions in ways that Varys isn't able to any more. I'm not saying Varys trusts him, but I do think he might be using him. After all, Qyburn IS helping Varys keep Cersei in power.

Qyburn wants Cersei in power for his own gain. I do think that Varys is using him, but I don't think that Qyburn is aware of it. Varys doesn't reveal himself easily. He can easily manipulate Qyburn over the information he passes him over his birds. Revealing himself is too much of a risk.

Yes but why does Varys care about that? why does he need proof that Cersei's children aren't legitimate?

I think he was trying to cover all bases. You never know when you might need it. He can't predict events 100% so he has to make sure to have as many options open as he can.

 

[<nox>]

And how about this one for a crazy theory:
The Faceless men worship Death, and Varys is their agent in Westeros, working to bring about the death of the 7 kingdoms.

Aren't there some characters somewhere in the series that have a special relationship with death? Like that they are the dead walking the earth or something?

If Varys was working for the others, plunging the 7 kingdoms into civil war and destruction would be the best thing to do logically.

To add to this one; in Nan's story to Bran, in AGoT, the Others came with white spiders...Varys is always likened to a pale spider.
(Sorry if this was already brought up)

 

[Groot]

I think Varys is a Blackfyre and Illyrio and Aegon are also Blackfyre and they have just been biding their time to get Aegon crowned.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

Only, it was said Blackfyres have died out by male line. But if they are Bittersteel's ******* spawn... AHAHA There is no good theory without a bit of crack.