Knights and Faceless Men- a discussion

[The Imp]

I hate participating in a massive thread derailment, but I have to comment further, so i've taken the liberty of starting a new thread, as it seems to be a more interesting topic that Walder Frey

Just using what we know from the books, and not what is implied, there can be huge distinctions made between Knights and Faceless Men, distinctions that are so great that it almost makes it impossible to compare the two.

First and foremost, Knights require size, strength and to a certain extent agility. While size isn't as important in jousting as it might be in hand to hand combat, a knight still needs the size and strength to be able to wear plate armor, carry a shield, and wield a weapon. The need for stamina/endurance is also obvious. A Knight doesn't have to be especially smart, as evidenced by someone such as Gregor Clegane, or almost anyone in the current kingsguard. In addition to all of the above, a Knight needs constant physical training in order to stay in top shape and hone their skills, but they reach a point where the onset of age erodes their skills and reflexes, so it might be said that the optimal age for a Knight might be somewhere between ages 20 or so and perhaps 40. There is also the needs for good equipment, which can be expensive and hard to come by (just ask Dunk). Lastly, Knights will almost invariably be men, which limits the available pool of people.

On the other hand we have Faceless Men. Size doesn't matter, sex doesn't matter, age matters, but not a lot. A young girl can obviously have the makings of a fine FM. Equipment matters only if they are going to use poison, and perhaps to initially learn a face, although that's not clear. We certainly don't know all of the secrets of the FM, but again, it seems clear that a young girl could become one one. Age doesn't matter as much, and the erosion of physical skills such as eyesight might not be as crucial as it would be for a Knight. A FM clearly needs to be intelligent and resourceful, and relies on their wits rather than their fists to move through the world and accomplish missions. We don't know what kind of combat skill training a FM gets, so it's unclear how far a FM needs to progress on a physical level. Lastly, while the pool of available people might be larger, the training of a FM is very specialized and they probably don't get to practice their skills very much, but must be able to use them quickly and efficiently when the need arises.

Having said all of that, it's clear that Knights get better with age, up to a point, and then their skills deteriorate. It's not clear that a FM gets better with age and experience, after having learned whatever skillset they needed to be "certified' as a full FM. Based on what we know, it's not clear that a fully trained girl of 12 years of age wouldn't be as good as a FM who was a 30 year old man. In certain ways she might be better.

Going back to the discussion from the Walder Frey thread, i think tghat Arya would be formidable right now, even with incomplete training. I think she is headed back to Westeros, and will be a force to be reckoned with. I don't buy the idea thatshe needs a lifetime to master her craft. Right now, knowing what we know, she's a FM novice that can WARG!!! hello, what else does she need?

 

[Mesanna]

Interesting post.

I agree that Faceless Men and knights are very different creatures, but I think that FM have a greater advantage over knights. As you say, eventually the body ages and a knight will no longer be able to swing that broadsword the way he did in his youth. The job of a Faceless Man, on the other hand, is not so much physical, so age wouldn't seem to be a factor. (Having said that, I can't believe that they don't get some sort of combat training. Their best defence is secrecy and anonymity, but surely they receive some lessons in self-defence and hand-to-hand combat in case they get into a sticky situation?)

I can't really agree though that Arya will be as accomplished a FM as, say, Jaqen. The Faceless Men rely on their wits, cunning and knowledge, and to my mind, these things tend to grow with age. Jaqen will be better simply because he has lived longer, presumably has travelled extensively and generally had more experience in the world and dealing with people (maybe that should read "manipulating" people). This isn't to put down Arya's skills though. I imagine that student Faceless Men must learn to a certain level before they are considered to have "graduated", and I can see Arya easily reaching that level if she sticks with them. The main advantage of a youthful FM is that they can go places where adults can't, because people may not consider a child a threat or they just won't pay much attention to them. But in a toss up, I would take an older FM over Arya, as he or she is more likely to have gained wisdom, patience and cunning over the years. Arya is often rash and makes emotional, rather than objective, decisions.

My personal belief is that Arya will stick with the FM for a while yet, learning all she can, but she will never become a "fully qualified" FM, as she'll bail before then. But between the skills she has learned and her warging ability, I agree she will be almost unstoppable!

 

[Ursa major]

Lastly, while the pool of available people might be larger, the training of a FM is very specialized and they probably don't get to practice their skills very much, but must be able to use them quickly and efficiently when the need arises.

If you only consider the physical attributes, you're probably correct in saying that there' should be a larger pool of people** available to the Faceless Men. However, while there are some, the Hound for example, who would not wish to be a knight even if they were offered the chance, how many people would truly want to be a Faceless Man. And if they did, would they be psychologically up to the task?

Being a Faceless Man is to be both a spy and a killer; both tasks require more than training. You must want to live a lie, and happily; you must have the stomach for cold-blooded killing. I would suggest that neither is common; the combination must be rare indeed.

In the books, there are lots of people who (say they) want to be a knight. How many have we seen who would want to be a Faceless Man?



** - Including, perhaps, Children of the Forest...?

.

 

[The Imp]

If you only consider the physical attributes, you're probably correct in saying that there' should be a larger pool of people** available to the Faceless Men. However, while there are some, the Hound for example, you would not wish to be a knight even if they get the chance, how many people would truly want to be a Faceless Man. And if they did, would they be psychologically up to the task?

Being a Faceless Man is to be both a spy and a killer; both tasks require more than training. You must want to live a lie, and happily; you must have the stomach for cold-blooded killing. I would suggest that neither is common; the combination must be rare indeed.

In the books, there are lots of people who (say they) want to be a knight. How many have we seen who would want to be a Faceless Man?

Say more about the CoF please.



** - Including, perhaps, Children of the Forest...?

I agree, but i'd also ask how many people even know The Faceless Men exist? I suspect that many in Braavos know of them, or at least know they can go to the House of Black and WShite to receive "the gift', but how many others do? Just off the top of my head, i can't remember many peopler mentioning them. It was pycelle that mentioned them in the Small Council meeting, with Littlefinger talking about the enourmous cost. It's likely that Euron knew of them, in fact, he very well may have hired one.

All that is fairly moot though. the qualities that you mentioned aren't those possessed by many people, although those who worship the Many Faced God would probably all be candidates, but I think that people are recruited, and there is no "application process"

 

[Needle]

Wow Imp, talk about comparing apples and oranges, this truly one of those cases!

One thing I don't think was mentioned is that most knights are well (if not high) born. There are exceptions, of course, the hedge knights, but as was pointed out to Jon, a man must be trained to sword, shield and horse. This training and equipment to train with is not available to most of the population. Most begin as squires, a position which is usually given to young sons of lords to prepare them for the knighthood. This further limits the pool.

It seems to me that in general (excluding Arya who as you said what more does she need!) Faceless men would improve with age. The older you get the more you know about people, how they act, what they are likely to do, their weaknesses. Although I would bet they have physical fighting skills, they don't need them to do their job, so as long as they can move around thay should be able to continue. And yes, I think new Faceless men are recruited by other Faceless men just Jaqen recruited Arya, when they feel someone is a good candidate.

 

[The Imp]

Wow Imp, talk about comparing apples and oranges, this truly one of those cases!

One thing I don't think was mentioned is that most knights are well (if not high) born. There are exceptions, of course, the hedge knights, but as was pointed out to Jon, a man must be trained to sword, shield and horse. This training and equipment to train with is not available to most of the population. Most begin as squires, a position which is usually given to young sons of lords to prepare them for the knighthood. This further limits the pool.

It seems to me that in general (excluding Arya who as you said what more does she need!) Faceless men would improve with age. The older you get the more you know about people, how they act, what they are likely to do, their weaknesses. Although I would bet they have physical fighting skills, they don't need them to do their job, so as long as they can move around thay should be able to continue. And yes, I think new Faceless men are recruited by other Faceless men just Jaqen recruited Arya, when they feel someone is a good candidate.

I hope it's clear that this wasn't a comparison that I wanted to make as much as just get the topic on it's own thread as it seemed as if that's what the Walder Frey thread had deteriorated into.

The thought just popped into my head btw that part of a FM's training is learning to SEE, even without eyes, and that Syrio Forel became the First Sowrd of the Bravosi Sealord by SEEING his cat for what it was- a fat cat. This just becomes lsigbhtly more of a breadcrumb after ADWD.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I have to ask, how did this come from a Walder Frey discussion? Was it the fact that Syrio fought Trant of the Kingsguard? But then how did you get there from Frey? Man, you folks and your silly detours and derailments.

That said, the Knight is obviously going to win in an open engagement, but Faceless Men will strike whenever it is to their advantage, which is obviously not going to be an open engagement. In short, I have no idea why the two would be compared. Even if we got past the oranges and apples stage, it's quite obvious that the Faceless Man/Woman/Child in question would win.

I say this with pain in my heart, because I don't like sneakysneakygits myself, I would've voted for the knight.

 

[Koopa]

It probably came from people's love for killing freys.
That and the wolves in the Riverlands.
Just a hunch though, haven't been following the Walder Frey threat.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

First and foremost, Knights require size, strength and to a certain extent agility.

I would actually reverse the order. There are plenty of Knights who aren't particularly large or physically strong. The majority of Knights we've encountered, in fact, have not been. Jaime, for instance, is not described as a physical specimen by any means, and yet he is (or was...) one of the best swordsman around. Ser Barristan, too.

Going back to the discussion from the Walder Frey thread, i think tghat Arya would be formidable right now, even with incomplete training. I think she is headed back to Westeros, and will be a force to be reckoned with. I don't buy the idea thatshe needs a lifetime to master her craft.

I would say, like others, that she needs more time to hone her skills. She has only really just begun to learn the way of the Faceless Men and, unlike Bran, her warging isn't very impressive either. I think she needs to work on being better at both, and then she will be a force to be reckoned with.

My personal belief is that Arya will stick with the FM for a while yet, learning all she can, but she will never become a "fully qualified" FM, as she'll bail before then.

I agree with this. She will stick around long enough to be very skilled at the craft, but then events in Westoros will force her to take an early leave.

 

[The Imp]

I have to ask, how did this come from a Walder Frey discussion? Was it the fact that Syrio fought Trant of the Kingsguard? But then how did you get there from Frey? Man, you folks and your silly detours and derailments.

That said, the Knight is obviously going to win in an open engagement, but Faceless Men will strike whenever it is to their advantage, which is obviously not going to be an open engagement. In short, I have no idea why the two would be compared. Even if we got past the oranges and apples stage, it's quite obvious that the Faceless Man/Woman/Child in question would win.

I say this with pain in my heart, because I don't like sneakysneakygits myself, I would've voted for the knight.

I suspect you didn't read the Walder frey thread, or at least the last 8 or so posts on it. There was a discussion started which talked about which of the two groups (Kinights and FM) would require longer training, or perhaps put differently, which of the two would require a longer time to hone their skills.

you can here here to refresh your memory if you've already read it

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/533405-walder-frey-prediction-spoilers-2.html

This thread was not intended to be "Knights Vs. Faceless Men, who would win.?" If it was i would have named it that. There is no contest that would adequately pit the two against each other. It would be like asking who would win if a lion fought a shark.

 

[TK-421]

OK, Mr. Imp.

So what do you think could be the connection, if any, between Syrio Forel and the Faceless Men?

Could it be just pure coincidence or fate that Arya's dancing isntructor was Braavosi, that she then met Jaqen H'gar and that she ended up in Braavos in the Temple of Black and White?

 

[The Imp]

I would actually reverse the order. There are plenty of Knights who aren't particularly large or physically strong. The majority of Knights we've encountered, in fact, have not been. Jaime, for instance, is not described as a physical specimen by any means, and yet he is (or was...) one of the best swordsman around. Ser Barristan, too.

This is basically true, but think back to the fight between Oberyn and The Mountain. Oberyn had speedm agility, poison and great skill on his side, yet Gregor was able to defeat him. Yes, an average sized person could achieve knighthood, but there are knights and then there are Knights. remember that Loras had to resort to trickery to defeat Gregor.

My point was that in order to be able to wield armor and weapons which would be able to stand up to an oopnent and also damage them a Kinight needs a certain ammount of size and strength. The Knight's two big advantages against oponents that aren't Knights is plate armor and heavy weapons.

i don't think Jaime is a huge man, but i don't think he's that small either. His skill with a sword is what set him apart from other men, but he wouldn't have been nearly as formidable if he was Tyrion's size.

 

[Koopa]

Jaime is said to be tall and golden.And Brienne mentioned something about him being strong even in his deprived state. Jaime is most likely the perfect Knight qua physique. GRRM equivalent of Lancelot.

That said, while knights need their bodies to be in a certain shape to properly wield their swords, ... what counts most is still skill. As shown by Jon (not the tallest or strongest but tall and strong enough) when he bested the other recruits of the NW, and as shown by Barristan his recruits, and Barristan himself. Being able to defeat that Pitfighter by his skill.

 

[Ursa major]

This is basically true, but think back to the fight between Oberyn and The Mountain. Oberyn had speedm agility, poison and great skill on his side, yet Gregor was able to defeat him. Yes, an average sized person could achieve knighthood, but there are knights and then there are Knights. remember that Loras had to resort to trickery to defeat Gregor.

Quite. I think the proverb that's most appropriate here is: "A good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un." Gregor may not be the most sophisticated of fighters, either for real or in jousts, but neither is he a slouch.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

Quite. I think the proverb that's most appropriate here is: "A good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un." Gregor may not be the most sophisticated of fighters, either for real or in jousts, but neither is he a slouch.

I would have to kinda disagree..Red Viper had The Mountain beat, and I think he knew it, so he got a little cocky thinking he could let his gaurd down and stand on top of Gregor. If anything their fight proved it's not the size that quite counts, but how much you know of your opponent and how you go about trying to kill him.

He should have just stayed his distance and used the spear to Cleganes throat. but emotion got in the way of common sense.