Suddenly, it all makes sense [Spoilers for HBO viewers]

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Be aware that this might count as spoilerous for those who intend to see the rest of the HBO series but haven't read the books.










Suddenly, I got an epiphany about who the three heads of the dragon are, and why. Now, the theory about who they are is not so strange. We've heard it before. Tyrion, Dany and Jon are the main contenders. But why?

They were born in the same circumstances. Tyrion's mother died in labour. Dany's mother died in labour. If we take R + L = J as truth, then Jon's mother died in labour too. Furthermore, if R + L = J, then that makes Jon half a Targaryen, just like Dany. If the rumour is true that Tyrion was actually sired by Aerys 2 instead of by Tywin, then there is a third Targaryen out there. Mind you, there is no previous Lannister + Targaryen coupling out there, so for all we know, that's why Tyrion looks like he does. A mix of both. I know his traits aren't really Targaryen but they are not Lannister completely, either.

But that gives us three surviving Targaryens, one for each dragon.
They were all born in a bed of blood and will ultimately be fighting on the side of fire. Fire and Blood. Those are the Targaryen words.

 

[Boaz]

Sy, I will grasp at anything that supports Tyraen Targaryen. Suffice it to say that you are my new favorite poster!

 

[Needle]

Total agreement!!

I have believed for years that the three heads are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion. If Tyrion has to be a Targ for that to happen, then Targ he is!!

 

[Lyanna Stark]

This is a brilliant ray of what I'm hoping to be absolute truth!

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

One piece of evidence that I found comes from the Harper Voyager edition of A Feast for Crows, page 625:

"Jaime", she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak ... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. (...)"

This is Genna Frey - Lannister speaking to Jaime. While this can be construed as Tywin being angry at her for saying Tyrion takes after him, I do not agree. Even if Tyrion is a dwarf, Tywin must have been grudgingly proud of his second son. Therefore, I posit that this anger was in fact not because Genna said Tyrion takes after Tywin, but rather that Tywin was reminded of Tyrion's questionable heritage.

By the way, this was actually given to me as proof AGAINST Tyrion being a Targaryen. Heh, imagine that.

 

[Tansy]

If Tywin had any suspicions that Tyrion was not his he'd have drowned him at birth I think

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I doubt it, Tansy. He didn't drown Tyrion once he found out he was a dwarf, either.

 

[True Southron]

Tywin did not drown Tyrion once he found out he was a dwarf only because Tyrion was his SON.

 

[Tansy]

Exactly True Southron, a dwarf you have fathered is different from a dwarf that is the result of your wife having an affair with another man

 

[Lyanna Stark]

One piece of evidence that I found comes from the Harper Voyager edition of A Feast for Crows, page 625:

"Jaime", she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak ... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. (...)"

This is Genna Frey - Lannister speaking to Jaime. While this can be construed as Tywin being angry at her for saying Tyrion takes after him, I do not agree. Even if Tyrion is a dwarf, Tywin must have been grudgingly proud of his second son. Therefore, I posit that this anger was in fact not because Genna said Tyrion takes after Tywin, but rather that Tywin was reminded of Tyrion's questionable heritage.

By the way, this was actually given to me as proof AGAINST Tyrion being a Targaryen. Heh, imagine that.

I would have to disagree here. I think Gemma's comment has more to do with personality than with blood. Jaime is hotheaded and impulsive, just as Gemma says. Tyrion is cool, calm, collected, calculating, cunning and patient like Tywin.

I think this has more to do with nurture than with nature. An adopted child who shares no blood whatsoever with either parent can still adopt personality traits of one or both parents based on what they learn by interacting with said parents. Tyrion, knowing no other parent but Tywin (as Joanna died in childbirth) had only Tywin to set an example for him. Because he lacked the charming good looks of the entire rest of his family, and thus was not qualified to go out and seek glory on his own terms, naturally he would pick up other traits from the only example he had.

I still fully believe Tyrion is a Targ in disguise, which just attests all the more to his remarkable adaptability and intelligence.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I would have to disagree here. I think Gemma's comment has more to do with personality than with blood. Jaime is hotheaded and impulsive, just as Gemma says. Tyrion is cool, calm, collected, calculating, cunning and patient like Tywin.

I think this has more to do with nurture than with nature. An adopted child who shares no blood whatsoever with either parent can still adopt personality traits of one or both parents based on what they learn by interacting with said parents. Tyrion, knowing no other parent but Tywin (as Joanna died in childbirth) had only Tywin to set an example for him. Because he lacked the charming good looks of the entire rest of his family, and thus was not qualified to go out and seek glory on his own terms, naturally he would pick up other traits from the only example he had.

I still fully believe Tyrion is a Targ in disguise, which just attests all the more to his remarkable adaptability and intelligence.

So you would be more on the side of Jaime and Cersei leaning towards being the bastards and not Tyrion? This would make me laugh, as the irony is delicious. The twins, the paragons of what it is to be a Lannister, beautiful and rich, are in fact not Lannisters, but the horrible icky whoring dwarf Tyrion is the only one.

 

[Lyanna Stark]

The irony is delicious, though not entirely what I was going for ^__^ I was going more with the fact that Tyrion is likely not Tywin's issue, but merely took more after his alleged father than either of the twins. But the fact that Jaime and Cersei both have the hotblooded tendencies the Mad King was known for does make it very amusing.

 

[Sleepless]

Tywin did not drown Tyrion once he found out he was a dwarf only because Tyrion was his SON.

Or because you dont just drown the ******* son of a king, even if he is a dwarf and born of your wife? It would certainly seem to me that Tywin was no fool, and to treat Tyrion like he did because he was a dwarf despite the exceptional ability he had for all things Lannister always struck me as a little off... perhaps he saw a greater use for a Targ in the future...

Anyway, clutching at straws.

 

[Ursa major]

I'm leaning to the position that if Aerys fathered any of the three, it was Jaime and Cersei. I can't recall where the passage in ADwD was, but I'm sure it referred to a superior lord's first night rights, which would indicate the first child (or children, if twins).


(And there's a great big hint in the first chapter of AGoT: brother-sister incest.)

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I wonder if the coupling between brother and sister was a Valyrian thing or merely a Targaryen thing..

 

[Jaqen H'gar]

In regards to the whole whether or not twin would have killed baby tyrion, there is this to consider: Joanna died. from everything we have heard, tywin loved Joanna fiercely, and so when she died and tyrion lived he faced a choice. Even if it is true that tyrion is Aerys's son, and tywin did know about it, he might not have been able to bear killing tyrion, since he was the last piece of joanna that he had left.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Haven't had a lot of time to research this, but does anyone know what house Joanna came from and her physical features. (ie hair color. Etc.)

We know the Lannisters are blond, so with Jaime and Cersie there has to at the very least be a full blooded Lannister behind their parentage. If not Tywin, then who? If in fact Joanna wasn't a "natural" blond herself.

If Joanna was a natural blond, then I dont think there is any question in regards to Jaime/Cersie, but truly opens the door for the Tyrion speculation. The fact that he is a dwarf means nothing. His eye/hair color are the true factors.

I still think back to what John Connnington asked Tyrion. Paraphrasing "Are you a king or a servant" upon first meeting him.

 

[Culhwch]

From what I remember, Joanna was a Lannister - a cousin of Tywin's.

 

[Mesanna]

Haven't had a lot of time to research this, but does anyone know what house Joanna came from and her physical features. (ie hair color. Etc.)

We know the Lannisters are blond, so with Jaime and Cersie there has to at the very least be a full blooded Lannister behind their parentage. If not Tywin, then who? If in fact Joanna wasn't a "natural" blond herself.

If Joanna was a natural blond, then I dont think there is any question in regards to Jaime/Cersie, but truly opens the door for the Tyrion speculation. The fact that he is a dwarf means nothing. His eye/hair color are the true factors.

I still think back to what John Connnington asked Tyrion. Paraphrasing "Are you a king or a servant" upon first meeting him.

Isn't Tyrion's hair described as more white than blonde? That could hint at Targ heritage

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

From what I remember, Joanna was a Lannister - a cousin of Tywin's.

Ok, well incest doesnt fall too far from the family tree. This could have more to do with the Jamie/Cersie manerisms than to have them compared to the mad king. The incest born characters have been the wildest in regards to temperment (See Viserys and others)

I would be happy if GRRM came right out and said that the blood line (i.e. hair/eye color) are a true gauge as to ones heritage in Westeros. However, with ADWD opening the door for hair dye, people falsely dying, fake letters, supposedly dead characters coming back into the fold, anything is truly possible.

For the last few years i have been intent on connecting the dots along with everyone elses crackpot theories. Yet, with ADWD, GRRM opens up too many possiblities, which leaves the door open for whatever he chooses to do and leaves us unable to truly make sense of what is to come. I'm kind of lost as to why he did certain things but still interested in how he will bring a close to everything. Instead of crackpot theories we may need heroin-pot theories going forward.

I blame the open ended character developments and the subsequent scrapping of what was done and starting over, on the fans who have probably figured it out through our many crackpot theories throughout the years of waiting, but it wouldnt be a surprise so he went in a totally different direction. (Boaz and a few others on this forum could be the ones who shifted GRRM's path as there has been alot of believeable and unbelievable theories and none of them seem right, which is unbelievable in itself)

I wish we would have been told what Briennes last word was, or here the word "Dracarys" from Danny in ADWD but maybe we'll get this in TWOW.

I believe since he has already started in this direction he should be able to put out the next two books in 3 year intervals. I say this because it was 6 years between AFFC and ADWD so i would imagine that it took him 3 years to start over.

I still have the belief that he will pull it together and one of the last two books will outdo ASOS as the fan favorite.