Slap bang at square one..and wide eyed with it

[Fitzchiv]

Hi all,

Quick intro: 27, male, working in a reasonable but uninteresting job, glancing backwards at a degree course disappearing into the chasm of time..

In the last couple of years my passion for reading has been rekindled massively, having gone through a lull (and a certain amount of burn-out) during my late teen academic years.

As a person I think I’m 'settled' again after years of final transition into an adult - and I have come full circle back to reading and in particular the fantasy genre.

Six months ago it struck me that some of my favourite work hits, but not quite nails, the button of what really moves me in a story and character. The premise is there, but the emphasis on certain events in the central characters life could be exploited more. It's through this feeling of needing "more" I arrived at the conclusion one day that perhaps the way to get "more" was, rather than to read, to write.

The longest pieces I have written are two dissertations, long ago, approx 14,000 words in length. It has to be said that I was a little light on facts when writing them, and my..shall we say..'rambling'..style was used as a means to pad out the word count. The point really is that in general I enjoy getting my language down in writing, maybe a little too much at times.

So, upon deciding I would like to get into writing I have been doing a lot of thinking about the kind of world and mythology I want to work with - I think it's safe to say the level of fantastic in my current construct will be somewhat less elaborate than that of others.

I also selected the perspective I would like to at least start off working in. First person.

The next step has been to start reading about writing, I have just finished Your Writing Coach by Jurgen Wolff and have found it both extremely helpful in giving me an idea of techniques and approaches, but also hugely daunting.

I have purchased several fantasy reference books and historical reference books, to educate myself in the specifics of the environment my characters will inhabit. However I feel as if I am coming to the point in the next six months where I have an idea and snippets jotted down in my notebook, I have read books on high fantasy, castles etc, and have a good idea about the perspective I want to write from..but can't take the leap into actually writing.

My reason for posting on here is, in light of this, for advice on the obstacles I feel I am facing;

• I feel as if my actual language skills are nowhere near sufficient to consider entering into this market. My English Lit. education ended with a B in GCSE in the late 90's and has gone untouched since. I read something on this site before posting this about Adverbs. Once I'd read it, I understood entirely what the debate was, however had you asked me straight off the bat what an Adverb was I would shrug my shoulders and click frantically at the Google search bar in my browser. This applies to pretty much the entire English language, including punctuation as I am sure by now you will have seen.
• I am daunted not only by the quality of writing, but the volume of it in the genre I am targeting. After a wander round the fantasy section of my local branch of Waterstones yesterday I was struck by the amount of books that appeared to have a similar central theme as the project I would, eventually, like to complete.
• I have a full-time job and cannot afford to leave it in order to chase this dream, at least not yet. In fact it's safe to say I wouldn't be able to turn this into a career until it yielded some kind of financial income sufficient to pay my bills!
• I'm not creative enough. I read the work of my favourite author and the way she develops a story over years, through multiple books, linking dots together over decades, weaving a higher story into the more immediate one with just enough disclosure to leave you looking for more in what you've already read - I read that and I simply think "I could not do that". How does someone arrive at that level of imagination and skill, where they can think up an entire cultural back-story that defines the way the current lives being described are lead?

I would like to thank anyone who took the time to read this far, and apologise for the overly verbose first post - as you can hopefully see I am laying all my cards on the table at once in order to harvest as many titbits of advise as possible on one or all of the bullets.

I think a basic set of questions I would ask a group of experienced, talented writers would be;

• How can I learn to understand and use my language better?
• Is there a good book I can use to get me started on the very, very basics of writing - i.e. how many words per chapter in a novel, how to construct a story board etc, or are these all learned skills from trial and error?
• Is it possible to undertake this dream with a regular 9-5 job taking up 38hrs of a week?
• Help!

Cheers,

G

 

[Dozmonic]

There are no shortcuts to this. You are going to have to write, a lot. If you can accept that it will take years of writing (you have other commitments filling your time) and you think you are still going to be trying after five years, then stick with it.

Whatever you think is going to be a fantastic first book probably won't. But don't let it stop you sitting down and trying to write it. Look at the mistakes you make as you do it, learn from it and find a point where you are happy to stop, start another project for a bit and learn again.

You may find yourself writing a single chapter over and over, varying slightly how it's done. This is fine, good and normal for learning. I remember doing some chapters fifteen times over and realising how I'd done it the first time was the best. But it took a lot of doing it wrong to accept that, and I learned as much doing it wrong as I did doing it right.

There are plenty of books on structures etc, but the best thing you can do is look at those books you already like. Take a few hours to take one you know and break it down. What happens in each scene? How many pages is that scene? How many words a page, on average? What (POV) point of view is it written in? How many POVs in the book in total? Make notes on every scene (usually chapters are broken down into scenes), but often in fantasy those scenes are interwoven into a mass of text.

Work at it, stick around, ask questions, work at it some more, read the gems you find on the forums here.

You can certainly write while working full time, most people do.

And have fun!

 

[chrispenycate]

I think a basic set of questions I would ask a group of experienced, talented writers would be;

Well, lacking this group I'm afraid you're going to have to make do with us. And this will (if enough answer) demonstrate that your questions do not have definitive, absolute answers, but carry strong opinions, albeit those opinions are frequently contradictory.

How can I learn to understand and use my language better?

Write lots; and learn to read it as if it were someone else's writing. Read lots; and learn to compare objectively between what you have written and what you have enjoyed reading. And criticise other people's writing; you may well be surprised about how many of the things that annoy you in that have remained overlooked in yours.

Is there a good book I can use to get me started on the very, very basics of writing - i.e. how many words per chapter in a novel, how to construct a story board etc, or are these all learned skills from trial and error?

Most of the rules were made to be broken. Unfortunately, before you can break them effectively you have to know them intimately, and understand why they exist. If your book needs a fourteen word chapter in the middle it doesn't matter what the 'how to write a best seller' authors say, it needs it. But (starts sentence with a conjunction, wrong!) there are reasons chapters exist, so you need better reasons to invent your own structural techniques.

Is it possible to undertake this dream with a regular 9-5 job taking up 38hrs of a week?

Yes, definitely, if you are not impatient. In fact the majority of first novels will be produced in these conditions (or worse, bringing up a young family, or commuting many hours on top of the official 'employed' time. Economics insists on this; if it takes three to ten years to write, edit and find a market for the book, including lots of learning time and research unnecessary for the sequel, there is no way that it can earn a living wage for this period. Arts council grant? (fragment, wrong!) don't make me laugh. Living off unemployment benefits does not tend to make you buckle down and finish two thousand words a day, however it might seem that it would. More, it seems to sap initiative; fighting the universe for the twenty-fifth hour in a day seems much more stimulating. After all, you can always ration the time you spend in the Chronicles…

Help!

Um, that's not a question, it's a command, and I don't know if I've obeyed it.

Don't worry about the number of other authors who share the basic concept with you; as soon as your characters get hold of it the story will diverge from where you had intended it to go, anyway. Enjoy the ride.

Don't write for commercial success, write your book. Assume you're doing it just so this book will exist. Any money coming in is icing, and certainly payment per hour will be miniscule.

Welcome in. Optimistic old curmudgeon, ain't I? But as I mentioned the diversity of opinion here there'll probably be someone along more positive.

 

[Fitzchiv]

There are no shortcuts to this. You are going to have to write, a lot. If you can accept that it will take years of writing (you have other commitments filling your time) and you think you are still going to be trying after five years, then stick with it.

Whatever you think is going to be a fantastic first book probably won't. But don't let it stop you sitting down and trying to write it. Look at the mistakes you make as you do it, learn from it and find a point where you are happy to stop, start another project for a bit and learn again.

You may find yourself writing a single chapter over and over, varying slightly how it's done. This is fine, good and normal for learning. I remember doing some chapters fifteen times over and realising how I'd done it the first time was the best. But it took a lot of doing it wrong to accept that, and I learned as much doing it wrong as I did doing it right.

There are plenty of books on structures etc, but the best thing you can do is look at those books you already like. Take a few hours to take one you know and break it down. What happens in each scene? How many pages is that scene? How many words a page, on average? What (POV) point of view is it written in? How many POVs in the book in total? Make notes on every scene (usually chapters are broken down into scenes), but often in fantasy those scenes are interwoven into a mass of text.

Work at it, stick around, ask questions, work at it some more, read the gems you find on the forums here.

You can certainly write while working full time, most people do.

And have fun!

Hi, thanks for the reply. I think if I can get over the first 'hump' of deciding whether I have the potential to achieve what I would want to long term I have no issue in the fact it will be a significantly long term period of development. In fact I kind of look forward to the prospect of 'maturing' into a style and skill.

One thing that does concern me however is I have a very clear premise for a story I would like to tell, however bearing in mind I will be nowhere near ready to actually write it - do I put it off for a decade, or do I make a bad job of it the first time around and end up repeating that same premise several times over before I get it right? Daft as it sounds I would like my best work when all's said and done, to be on this premise - although of course that could change as life steers me.

 

[HareBrain]

One thing that does concern me however is I have a very clear premise for a story I would like to tell, however bearing in mind I will be nowhere near ready to actually write it - do I put it off for a decade, or do I make a bad job of it the first time around and end up repeating that same premise several times over before I get it right? Daft as it sounds I would like my best work when all's said and done, to be on this premise - although of course that could change as life steers me.

Yes, write that. For a start, it's the one you're motivated to write. Putting in tens or hundreds of thousands of words on practice projects just to get good enough to tackle your big idea is doomed to failure unless you've got more discipline than me. And if you make a bad job of it first time, you don't necessarily have to start again and repeat; you edit. Maybe very heavily edit, but you'll still have something to work on, and by the time you finish the first version, you will be closer to the writing ability you think you need (which is probably not as lacking as you think).

Also, this is only the best story premise you've come up with so far. The author you talk about above, I'm pretty sure wouldn't have come up with her complex world as a first project.

 

[Anne Lyle]

[*]How can I learn to understand and use my language better?

1. Read good fiction - any and all genres that you enjoy
2. Write. Lots.
3. Find a good critique group who will pick you up on your errors, because you will be too close to your work to have an objective view

[*]Is there a good book I can use to get me started on the very, very basics of writing - i.e. how many words per chapter in a novel, how to construct a story board etc, or are these all learned skills from trial and error?

Words per chapter is simple - take a few books of the type you want to emulate, do a word count on a few sample pages, and work out from there how long the chapters are. For fantasy, around 3-5k is typical, in my experience. The book itself will need to be around 100-120k, for a debut fantasy novel - there are some examples that break the rule, but a longer book is a much tougher sell.

For basic writing skills, I recommend "Plot & Structure" by James Scott Bell, "Writing the Breakout Novel" by Donald Maass and "Self-Editing for Fiction Writers" by Renni Brown and Dave King. If you enjoy podcasts, I would also recommend Writing Excuses, hosted by Brandon Sanderson, Howard Tayler and Dan Wells.

Books will teach you craft, but when it comes to publishing and marketing, they go out-of-date fast. Online resources like Absolute Write are far more useful when it comes to querying and submitting your manuscript.

If you have a little more money to spend (like, $250), I heartily recommend Holly Lisle's online courses - I've done both her five-month courses and found them invaluable.

There are no shortcuts to actually working your "apprenticeship" by writing - expect the process to take years, and a lot of hard work - but books and courses will help you to avoid some of the newbie mistakes.

[*]Is it possible to undertake this dream with a regular 9-5 job taking up 38hrs of a week?

Yes, if you want it enough. I work a regular day job, and have done so for the past couple of decades, whilst I dabbled in improving my writing and then began to take it more seriously.

I've just sold my first submitted manuscript in a three-book deal (the book itself comes out early next year), and am contracted to turn in the two sequels in around 9-10 months each. I don't see myself quitting the dayjob any time soon unless my books are far more successful than I have any right to expect!

Needless to say, I don't have much of a life outside writing - but on the plus side, I've made a bunch of great friends through going to SFF conventions!

 

[terryweide]

You've already gotten some good advice and there are numerous good books out there on how to write both sci-fi and fantasy, so I'll just make a couple of comments.

You're favorite author, whoever she is, did not start out writing an intricate plot line through multiple books, linking dots over decades, etc. That's what the complete set of works evolved into over time. In the beginning, though, that author sat down and wrote the first book, then the second one, then the thrid, and on and on. That world got more complex the more she built it. Not that the first book may not have been intricate in its own right, but a set or series does not happen that fast. It takes a number of years to pull that off.

When I was kid, I heard Janet Daily, the romance author, give an interview. Janet Daily said something to the effect of "Critics laugh at me because I write romance novels. But I live in a million dollar mansion and they don't because I have the discipline to sit in front of a typewriter for 12 hours a day."

There's always going to be people with better language skills or more talent. However, a lot of talented writers never get published or make it big. I believe Daily was right. In the end it may come down to who wants it most and who has the discipline to write day after day until they are successful. Can you sit in front of a typewriter or computer writing one story, then another, until, lo and behold, one of them actually gets published? The discipline and desire are big parts of being a writer. You'll find out pretty quick if it's something you want to spend your life doing.

 

[Nik]

You must write, write, write, write and write. Then write some more.

Edit recursively or by chunks, as your preference. Then, leave stuff a-while to season, go back and edit some more.

Note-pad and pen, keyboard, dictaphone, speech-recognition or whatever, you must write.

Keep a pen and note-pad handy for when you roll out of bed at dark o'clock with a notion bright and sharp in your mind's eye...

When words flow, scribble furiously. When words dribble, do what you can. When you have a spare moment, haul out your pad and throw a few words at the page...

Even if you're re-working the same troubled scene over and over, each iteration --Given our fallible memories-- will be slightly different. Collate the best bits from several and start again. Think of it as Evolution in action...

I use Windows' free Notepad(TM) for my typing as it saves as plain-text txt files. These are small enough that a dozen sequentially named drafts takes less space than one 'Doc'. They are also the ultimate portable format. I can go back to archived text files that precede PCs and be confident that they'll load freely...

Throw *nothing* away. Remember, you can go back later and strip-mine your scribblings for a useful idea, phrase, character or plot-wriggle. Sometimes, you'll suddenly realise that adding a specific 'McGuffin' will make sense of an otherwise aimless tale...

Don't worry that your EngLit was nigh prehistoric; If you can tell a good tale, SFF will help with the devilish detail.

Just remember-- SFF members only red-line your work because they *care*.

 

[Anne Lyle]

Oh, yeah, forgot this bit:

My English Lit. education ended with a B in GCSE in the late 90's and has gone untouched since.

Mine too (well, OK, we called them 'O' Levels back then) - but I got a C, not a B. I did get an A in English Language, though, which is at least as relevant as English Lit.

The good thing about writing fiction is that you don't need a formal education, just a love of language and writing. You learn on the job, so to speak

 

[Dozmonic]

Hi, thanks for the reply. I think if I can get over the first 'hump' of deciding whether I have the potential to achieve what I would want to long term I have no issue in the fact it will be a significantly long term period of development. In fact I kind of look forward to the prospect of 'maturing' into a style and skill.

One thing that does concern me however is I have a very clear premise for a story I would like to tell, however bearing in mind I will be nowhere near ready to actually write it - do I put it off for a decade, or do I make a bad job of it the first time around and end up repeating that same premise several times over before I get it right? Daft as it sounds I would like my best work when all's said and done, to be on this premise - although of course that could change as life steers me.

Write it now, because it's probably something you'll enjoy doing and stick with. You'll see just how much you refine your ideas over time and what took you one month to come up with and develop will soon take you a week and then a day.

Don't be afraid to put it down when you've done what you can on it for now. The core ideas will remain and you will have learned a lot in the process. Then you can start it again, or start something else and see how that goes.

As far as writing goes technically, you'll be fine

 

[RJM Corbet]

... As far as writing goes technically, you'll be fine

But everyone else will think you're crazy ...

 

[slack]

My reason for posting on here is, in light of this, for advice on the obstacles I feel I am facing;

• I feel as if my actual language skills are nowhere near sufficient to consider entering into this market. My English Lit. education ended with a B in GCSE in the late 90's and has gone untouched since. I read something on this site before posting this about Adverbs. Once I'd read it, I understood entirely what the debate was, however had you asked me straight off the bat what an Adverb was I would shrug my shoulders and click frantically at the Google search bar in my browser. This applies to pretty much the entire English language, including punctuation as I am sure by now you will have seen.

Judging from your post here, your language skills are more than adequate. Writing doesn't need to be dressed up in elaborate language to be effective. Simple language is easily understood and can be quite graceful. Also, some words just plain sound better and are more vivid than their older relatives; i.e., 'cut' versus 'lacerated'.

Write with the words that feel natural and you'll be okay.

• I am daunted not only by the quality of writing, but the volume of it in the genre I am targeting. After a wander round the fantasy section of my local branch of Waterstones yesterday I was struck by the amount of books that appeared to have a similar central theme as the project I would, eventually, like to complete.

Research story structure and you will discover that many of the stories out there have the same skeleton. The hero's journey is a recurring motif in all of literature. Countless stories have used its structure. If it's so common, why isn't it boring? Because it is the details of a particular story that make the story interesting.

• I have a full-time job and cannot afford to leave it in order to chase this dream, at least not yet. In fact it's safe to say I wouldn't be able to turn this into a career until it yielded some kind of financial income sufficient to pay my bills!

Most people write because they enjoy it, not because they see it as a lucrative enterprise. The odds are you will probably never make significant money off your writing. But that's okay! You write because it's fun, right? Right?

• I'm not creative enough. I read the work of my favourite author and the way she develops a story over years, through multiple books, linking dots together over decades, weaving a higher story into the more immediate one with just enough disclosure to leave you looking for more in what you've already read - I read that and I simply think "I could not do that". How does someone arrive at that level of imagination and skill, where they can think up an entire cultural back-story that defines the way the current lives being described are lead?

Creation is an organic process. Simple ideas become more and more complex. It is a mistake to think your favorite stories leaped out of the head-womb fully formed, because they most likely did not. At one time they were miserable, defenseless little things crying out to mommy-writer, and then they matured into the writing you see in print.

• How can I learn to understand and use my language better?

Read more. Google search for grammar basics if you really want to.

• Is there a good book I can use to get me started on the very, very basics of writing - i.e. how many words per chapter in a novel, how to construct a story board etc, or are these all learned skills from trial and error?

I happen to love books about writing. Here are the ones I've read and can recommend:

• Creating Short Fiction, Damon Knight. Possibly the best book I've read to date on how to craft short fiction.
• Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, Renni Browne and Dave King. Another must-have. This is not a grammar rule book, but covers topics like showing instead of telling, point of view, and dialogue mechanics.
• The Art of Fiction, John Gardner. Somewhat philosophical look at literature. The chapter about fiction being an 'uninterrupted dream' is quite good, as well as the last hundred pages about common errors and plot creation.
• Story, Robert McKee. Written for screenwriters, but still has a lot of good information about the nuts and bolts of story creation.
• On Writing, Stephen King. Good book, frequently recommended around here. There's only about a hundred pages of solid writing advice sandwiched between two memoirs. Worth reading.
• Bird by Bird, Anne Lamott. Another good book. More on the inspirational, shoulder-to-cry-on, kind of writer's book. Good information, but a lot of it is tucked away in the author's personal anecdotes.
• The Fire in Fiction, Donald Maass. Solid book.
• Writing Fiction for Dummies, Randy Ingermanson. Another dummies book. Surprisingly good. I never did like the format of dummies book, but this one covers pretty much all there is to know. Just don't expect it to explore concepts far below the surface.
• The Elements of Style, Strunk and White. Just buy the damn thing. It's a classic.

 

[RJM Corbet]

The Elements of Style, Strunk and White. Just buy the damn thing. It's a classic.

Absolutely!

 

[Boneman]

What Slack said...

If you love writing, you'll do it for yourself, first and foremost, and it seems to me you're already there. Every writer (okay, VS Naipul and Salman Rshdie apart...) starts from the same position you're in now, and progresses. I love that word, because every learning opportunity is progress, positive or negative. Your command of the language is more than good enough, get to it... oh, and show us some of your work.

 

[The Judge]

... oh, and show us some of your work.

Just not yet, eh?

That is, not yet in Critiques, which requires a minimum 30 post count -- but we've the Writing Challenges (she says, sneakily using the opportunity to proselytise in the absence of an intro thread) http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/532433-july-2011-seventy-five-word-writing-challenge-read.html and http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/532422-three-hundred-word-writing-challenge-2-read-first.html And there are many, many exercises in Workshop where you can strut your stuff.


As to the writing, the only point I would make is that you may be putting the cart before the horse in worrying about chapter lengths and story boards and all the rest of it. If you've never written before, then the first -- the only -- thing you have to worry about is writing and telling a story, or a part of a story. A person doesn't become an artist by reading a lot of books about perspective and brush techniques and chiaroscuro, not until long after he has actually started painting -- he first has to pick up a pencil and make marks on a piece of paper. You've got to do the same. (But we'll let you use a computer. We're kind like that. )

Good luck with it!

 

[Hex]

Hello

I agree the best way to learn about writing is to start writing. And I'd suggest you don't worry too much about how good/ sensible/ grammatical it is until you've written it, or a significant chunk of it. Otherwise, if you're anything like me, you'll never get it written at all.

From my own - limited and contrary - experience I'd say that reading about writing is one of the best ways to make writing impossible (not always, but often). There's so much to remember and apply that if you read books about writing before you start, it's terrifying (like I said, that's just my experience). For me, the emphasis on getting it right makes it hard to do anything at all.

From your post it's clear you can write - and now you just need to believe in yourself and start telling stories. Good luck!

 

[RJM Corbet]

... I agree the best way to learn about writing is to start writing. And I'd suggest you don't worry too much about how good/ sensible/ grammatical it is until you've written it ... I'd say that reading about writing is one of the best ways to make writing impossible (not always, but often). There's so much to remember and apply that if you read books about writing before you start, it's terrifying (like I said, that's just my experience). For me, the emphasis on getting it right makes it hard to do anything at all. ...

Yes, and humanity breaks down here into those who just get stuck in and those who're always going to do a thing but never do ...

 

[Jake Reynolds]

Ok, so I think everyone has covered everything. Just remember two things- every writer has a million bad words in them before the good ones start coming, and it takes ten years to be an overnight success!

Seriously though, just get cracking, whether it is snippets of scenery descriptions, character outlines, random conversations, just get going and let it flow. The best way to improve at writing isn't through courses, study or natural talent (though that helps). Simply write.

 

[RJM Corbet]

Oh, one more thing:

Don't throw ANYTHING away

 

[chopper]

you're in Nottingham, I note: good place to start. Other Worlds 2 happens at the central library in less than 2 weeks (check here for details: http://altfiction.co.uk/the-programme ). get out and about; find like-minded people. There are two relatively local writing groups that i know of, one in Derby (derby scribes; here) and the Sheffield SFF Group (yeah, um, wait, i know this one....ah, we need a site update i think....). I'm not clued up on Nottingham, but i'll bet that if you go check out Other Worlds any local chappies will be present somewhere...

And i work shifts at Meadowhall. not nice. i write in my lunch-hour. it can be done.

good luck!