31.04: The Time of Angels

[HoopyFrood]

What, no thread yet? For shame.

I have to admit, during the bit in the ship with Amy and the Angel on screen...I had my hands on my face. Me. Watched horror films since I was old enough to see, but those Angels........That's what Doctor Who should be! Hiding behind the cushion stuff.

I think, considering it was Angels and River Song, I had very high expectations and they didn't quite reach. But I enjoyed it.

That River Song is such an enigma. Lots of hints about her being the Doctor's wife, but I can't help think (or maybe want) Steven Moffat just doing that because that's the thing people have been guessing. As said in the episode, it's the Doctor, are things always that simple? And it seems she's done something he...er, won't, considering all the different timelines...like. I couldn't help thinking that there's some kind of link between Amy and River; just how she said to Amy "You...are...very good".

Sure I had something else to say...it'll come to me in a moment, I'm sure.

Have at it.

 

[thaddeus6th]

I really liked it. The bit with Amy and the angel in the TV screen was very well done. New Doctor's doing well, I think.

Part two looks even better.

 

[Dave]

I just wrote a very long post but lost it accidently. Briefly, I agree with Hoopy and Thaddeus. The part with Amy and the Angel was genuinely chilling.

The timeline of the Doctor and River Song doesn't seem right to me. I had an idea that River Song's very bad thing may have been to steal the TARDIS. An archaeologist would find a TARDIS irresistible. She can fly it better than the Doctor can himself, so has had practise. And it would explain why her presence in Library (in her future since she was a Professor) which was the far future of Earth, and yet the 'Church' soldier (who knew about her relationship with the Doctor) had heard of Earth.

I also think they took a long time to realise the statues were Angels. Just their positions alone meant they either Angels or people who had been turned to stone by some kind of Gorgon. I genuinely can't remember from 'Blink' - how did the Angels kill their victims?

 

[Tillane]

Yep, really enjoyed that. Nice and creepy, and I did like the odd little reference to Silence in the Library with the Doctor talking to "Sacred Bob" after he'd been killed.

Also, was it just me, or did everyone else wonder why River didn't recognise Amy? She knows this Doctor, so surely she'd know Amy - or at least know of her? Wouldn't she? After all, she knew Donna in the last series (and yes, I know this is River from a different time period than in Silence/Forest, but..oh, bother all this timey-wimey stuff. Too confusing.) Anyway, point is...is there a reason she doesn't know Amy? Or am I just reading too much into it?

Looking forward to next week.

 

[The Ace]

Horribly, Dave.

I was glad to see someone finally say it, though.

"No offence, Bishop."

"Much taken, Doctor."

If you don't mean to give offence, why the f**k would you say it in the first place ?

 

[HoopyFrood]

The Angels killing -- I swear it's described as a kind way in Blink. They send you back in time so that you live out the rest of your life, but out of place. And feed on your potential time...the time you were meant to fill.

And as the Doctor mentioned in the episode today, their snapping necks is thus out of character.

Doctor got burned a couple of times in the episode today, about leaving people, letting them down.

I like how you think, Dave, stealing the TARDIS would make sense, and why the Doctor was "busy" when she learnt how to drive it properly.

I like how River Song contacts the Doctor. Getting your head around all the Timey-Wimey stuff if bad enough, but using time (and 12,000 years of it here, by the titles) to make sure he's in the right place...

 

[Ursa major]

I know it happens on advert-rich commercial digital channels (possibly because they're desperate for any viewers to keep watching), but did the BBC have to put an animated banner advertising that Dorothy rubbish across the bottom of the screen towards the end of this episode. At the very least, they should have waited for the credits or the clips from the next episode, when getting the viewers to suspend their disbelief is not quite as important.

How are they going to scare the wits out of any viewers in a darkly-lit scene full of weeping angels when a badly-animated, brightly-coloured Graham Norton is walking across the screen. (Unless that show is where the weeping angels escape to....)

 

[Perpetual Man]

Once again I really enjoyed it. I thought that the tension was ramped up really nicely, and am beginning to find myself really liking Matt Smith's Doctor. I appreciate the old man trapped in a young man's body, it comes across really well.

I thought the Weeping Angels were going to be good in their own right, but the worn away, eroded look only served to make them all the more creepy.

Next weeks definitely looks just as good if not better, and there was no mention of the crack - although being a two parter it's waiting for next week. I know that a few people have said that Moffat seems to be hitting us over the head with this linking theme, but I wondered if Amy was causing it - she seems to have some temporal upset going on her around her, and maybe wherever she is taken in time causes the crack to appear - that would explain why we see it every week it actually being caused by the TARDIS being there (or Amy)

Also I've really started to notice the make-up of the new TARDIS interior, taps for controls, keyboards etc. Was it drawing on the technology around it as it rebuilt itself making do with what was on hand to do the jobs required?

It's quite strange but I'm starting to like the much maligned new version of the theme!!

I like the strange Doctor/River time-line and really like Dave's theory of her stealing the TARDIS at some point. I still wonder who it will be to teach her how to use it. (Unless of course she was just sniping with the Doctor.

All in all I really enjoyed this episode, and Perp jr. for all of his 1 1/2 years sat there riveted, consistently saying Doctor all the time, well with the odd Dalek thrown in...

 

[Rosemary]

I really will have to get a set top box! I only have analogue and Dr Who is now being shown only on the digital TV's! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Still it is very interesting reading what everyone thinks of the new Dr Who and at least I will have some idea of what is going on if I keep reading this thread

 

[Lenny]

As the Doctor would say, "Magnificent!". Far and away my favourite episode of the new series (and definitely up to the high standard that Moffat has set with his episodes from previous series) - the spaceship at the start was beautiful, Song's method of contacting the Doctor was amusingly genius, the setting is very low-tech, needs very few special effects and has been put built very well, and the tension in the episode was fantastic.

Did anyone else think of the Satan Pit episodes when they were underground at the Cleric's base?

I liked the idea that, in the 51st Century, the Church had moved on and become an Army.

Echoing above folks, the scene in the shuttle (Amy and the digital Angel) had me on the edge of my seat. I also found the communication from the dead folks quite freakish (a nice reference, and variation on a theme, to the communicators on the suits holding their wearers conscience from the first River Song episodes).

I can see the character of River Song being brought back every series for an episode or two and to be honest, if they're as good as her (now) two outings, I'd welcome them - even in series with later Doctors (she did mention that she has pictures of all his faces).

Last of all, I find it very interesting how the quality of the episode when Moffat is writing about his own thing is so much higher than that of a 'standard' episode. It being a two-parter may help somewhat.

EDIT: There's a point!! I wondered why the conversation tugged my subconscious when it was said, and I've realised why.

Tennant's Doctor was adamant he wouldn't die until "he" knocked four times. Smith's Doctor, when Amy told him he couldn't die because of all the things he was going to do with River Song, said that he could die and that time would simply be re-written.

Now I don't see why a prophecy from the Ood and someone having records of the Doctor's future timeline are any different - whilst a big thing wasn't made of it during the specials, I wonder if the Tenth Doctor could have died before the four knocks.

---

What, no thread yet? For shame.

Sorry - I don't have a TV License at Uni, and I don't like making threads simply as placeholders.

 

[Paradox 99]

Did anyone else think of the Satan Pit episodes when they were underground at the Cleric's base?

Actually it reminded me of Earthshock.

 

[HoopyFrood]

Heh, just saw a status from one of my friends on Facebook. He doesn't seem too thrilled. Some of his gripes: River Song seeming even more obnoxious (have to say that she was a bit too "aren't I awesome" at the beginning, until she changed outfits); turning the Angels into mere neck-snapping monsters; the stealing the voices of dead people a la Library of the Dead...

And also suddenly the Angels are the biggest, baddest things in the Universe. I suppose, while the Daleks sort themselves out, they might be...

I replied that Moffat's still got a way to go to catch up with Mr R.T "Look at all my wonderful, wonderful creations!" Davies. And I agree, Moffat's writing is just generally much better and much tighter.

Something I keep wondering -- is it somehow counting that the audience's eyes on the Angels keep them in place? Because, for example, in those scenes with Sacred Bob by himself, surely when his back's turned to the Angels they should disappear...


It flitted through my mind for a moment that River Song and Amy Pond are one and the same. A quick search shows I'm not the only one to think so; there's been discussion on at least one other board about such. Just a thought, haven't even tried to work out the mechanics of it...probably just been on the crazy juice...

 

[Xelah]

"That which holds the image of an angel itself becomes an angel."

How many of you realize that your TV's have had the image of an angel on it numerous times and the device is now waiting for you to not look at it.

 

[Dave]

River Song seeming even more obnoxious (have to say that she was a bit too "aren't I awesome" at the beginning, until she changed outfits)

I saw it as more of a homage to action movies. The way she held the gun against the backdrop of the circular airlock looked very like the opening titles of a Bond film. And with the dark shades she was very Angelina Jolie-esque.

River Song and Amy Pond are one and the same. A quick search shows I'm not the only one to think so; there's been discussion on at least one other board about such. Just a thought, haven't even tried to work out the mechanics of it...probably just been on the crazy juice...

Amy changed her name once from Amelia, so why not again? Would you not be able to recognise your older future self when you met them - however much you have changed? I'm asking that in a very general way, but in the context of Doctor Who, both the Daleks and the Doctor recognise the Doctor in different regenerations.

 

[Talysia]

I really enjoyed this episode - my favourite so far, in fact. Amy continues to be a strong character, especially how she deals with the Angel on the monitor, and the way River Song contacted the Doctor was really clever. Lots of potential, and I'm looking forward to the next episode more than ever now.

The only thing that spoiled it for me was the animated trailer for the next show appearing over the bottom of the screen. Surely the BBC could have waited until the credits, at least?

 

[thaddeus6th]

Thanks, Xelah

Ursa and Talysia, I completely agree.

I do hope we get a reason for the neck-snapping. It may be that, from a style perspective, getting sent back in time was a bit of a rubbishy fate, so an alternative (being murdered) was introduced to make the consequences of not blinking even worse.

 

[Pyan]

Didn't the Doctor say that they were all trapped and dying, for lack of nourishment after killing all the indigenous inhabitants? Perhaps they've gone beyond the point of being able to kill in the old way.


Hang on, though - wasn't it the "new" Angel that killed Bob and the other two crewmen? In which case, that suggestion doesn't hold up...

 

[thaddeus6th]

Aye, it was the healthy Angel that killed Sacred Bob.

Hmm. Killing did allow the Angel to take on their voices, which in turn allowed it to radio for others to 'come and see'. Could argue it decided whittling the human numbers down a bit was worth more than having a snack. Also, that agrees with what I think was said regarding the ship's radiation providing it (and the older Angels) with energy.

 

[PTeppic]

Myself: excellent episode. Forgot it was a two-parter because of all the non-stop action.

Hoopy: I think in Confidential SM says he wanted the "wife" relationship to continue to be slightly unproven.

Dave: Will take some time to work out the complex Doctor/River timelines: it's later in his but earlier in hers; she knows him, has got the diary and can fly the TARDIS but doesn't yet have her own sonic. Oh, but apparently is already his wife or wife-like relationship.

Dave (2a): From Blink, the Weeping Angels are the Lonely Assassins, the "only psychopaths in the universe to kill you nicely"... they send you back in time (stealing the potential temporal energy of that now missing life) and let you live to death. [Ah, Hoopy already said this...] The implication is that such a mechanism is either optional (and they could just break your neck) or requires strength/energy from the Angel to initiate it.

Dave (2b): they explicitly mentioned that this was the 51st century. I wondered why they seem so fixated on that period (Girl in the Fireplace as well?)... except it makes sense with River. I'd take it that she's not out of time and basically still within her own "normal" time-frame.

Tillane: as per the above (Dave 1), since this is earlier in River's timeline, this could be the first time she's met or heard of Amy. I don't imagine he will have mentioned every one of his companions, even to a spouse. At least, not for a while.

Ace: I've always assumed that the caveat is used when one is making a general statement, not being a personal slice at the person to whom the semi-apology is made. In this case at the church in general, but not at this bishop of that church.

Hoopy (2a) - most of what the Doctor knows about most species must come from second hand information either from the Gallifreyan schools/libraries etc., or from other people. He explicitly stated he's only met the Angels once, we know there were only four of them and they were left disabled. Not sure what he'd have done with them, leaving them in the basement of Wester Drumlins or moved them somewhere safer. But, that one experience didn't really justify most evil killers in the galaxy (when, as stated, the Daleks, Cybermen etc are also out there).

Hoopy (2b) - ah good point, that I'd missed. How on Earth had River got 12000 years into the past. Well, okay, the answer is probably obvious and involves a blue wooden box but I think the "how" is going to be quite interesting, and as hinted by the bishop, maybe not good for her relationship with the Doctor.

Ursa: I was saved the animated Norton... I had the subtitles "on", and they overlay any such annoying coming-next message. On the plus side, I was so engrossed I hadn't realised how far into the episode it was and assumed some clumsy vision mixer had pushed the button by mistake.

Perpetual Man (a): not sure if you saw the preview for next week, it very clearly answered your question about the crack in the universe. More than just a flash when everyone's gone home, too.

Perpetual Man (b): the TARDIS was designed by a Blue Peter competition winner. Not sure how much of the fine detail would have been down to them and how much was the art department but I got the impression it was going to be the former. I was going to note that River seemed completely at home in the new TARDIS, but it makes sense.

Lenny: they do seem to like their cavern-like sets. However, this one was a genuine cave system, where Satan Pit was an open air quarry with CGI.

Hoopy (3)/Thaddeus/pyan/Thaddeus(2): Presumably the healthy Angel wanted to make contact with the Doctor/humans. Not sure why, entirely. But it couldn't do that if the three clerics were zapped back in time. It's probably slight artistic twisting of necessity, really, as it could have kept the voice of Christian and simply zapped-back Angelo and Sacred Bob.

Finally, myself: just realised from the Wiki page... the crash of the Byzantium is one of the diary check events River mentions in Silence in the Library.

 

[Pyan]

Ursa: I was saved the animated Norton... I had the subtitles "on", and they overlay any such annoying coming-next message. On the plus side, I was so engrossed I hadn't realised how far into the episode it was and assumed some clumsy vision mixer had pushed the button by mistake.

I was so annoyed by this intrusive and unnecessary advertising, which, coming where it did, really upset the suspense for me, that I've sent a complaint to the BBC about it. I'll post the response I get, if any.