What not to put in a children's fantasy?

[misscousins]

I'm curious as to whether or not I should put drunken characters in a children's fantasy novel; I asked this because I know dwarfs and leprechauns are known for their merriment and drunkardness, and I would like this to be a part of the story, as they are celebrating a big annual event.

I think the story as a whole will be for all age groups, but I am curious as to whether or not I should aim for this to be classed as a childrens fantasy, or if I should just not worry about which category its for.

What are your veiws?

Tina xxx

 

[bigdaddyhybrid]

I think it would be more acceptable if the drunken character is a bit of comic relief and appears to be a really nice person. Now if he's staggering around and swearing it may not be the best idea LOL

 

[misscousins]

Hehe, no theres no swearing and the story I am writing is very comical. It's a major part of the story because the main profession in the dwarf village is cider making, and its such a big deal for them that they celebrate the harvest of apples every year and the celebrations get disrupted by something, and thats how the story spins off.

 

[The Ace]

Sounds like fun.

 

[Ursa major]

...as long as the apple doesn't go the someone's head and they discover gravity (which might be a bit dull for children).


I think you should be fine, misscousins, given that you're avoiding swearing and it's all in good fun (with all that implies).

 

[Stylus]

I seem to remember in 'Fantastic Mister Fox' (by Roald Dahl, so pretty good credentials in children's literature), a lot of the characters get merry on cider – they may even start singing a song about it.

 

[misscousins]

Thanks!

Also another question about writing fantasy for children, does it always have to be a happy ending? Can a morose or dark outcome be okay in children's fantasy?

 

[bigdaddyhybrid]

Thanks!

Also another question about writing fantasy for children, does it always have to be a happy ending? Can a morose or dark outcome be okay in children's fantasy?

I think a lot of it was a happy ending because the whole story was about some type of morals and that if you did the right thing you got the happy ending. In today's society I think showing the other side of the railroad tracks would be appropriate. So it's like saying "Well you didn't listen or pay attention so this is what happened." I say go for it

 

[j d worthington]

Actually, if you read much "children's literature" from any age, you'll find that a fair amount ends unhappily, or at least ambiguously. Certainly, some of the classic fairy tales do. (Cf. Anderson's "The Little Mermaid", which leaves the possibility of a happy resolution, but not an unalloyed one, or the original of "Little Red Riding Hood".) Even those which were about a moral -- and not all are -- were as much about a prohibition as about a moral in the positive sense; thus those who overstepped the prohibition frequently came to unhappy ends....

 

[ShadowSong]

I think this is a great topic, I myself have been considering writeing a story, were the main character is a girl exploring her spirituality only her parents don't like were she is going with it- pagan and wicca sort of stuff-so she decides to go to an abandon theme park near her appartment to have a place were she can be byherself, practice magick...ex
she ends up finding out that the carousel is haunted and has a magic of its own...
I figured it would be a story for young adult/teens
however I am concerned that if the main character is into wicca and stuff parents aren't going to want there kids/teens to read it- I mean parents didn't like Harry Potter and it really didn't even have anything to do with real witchcraft as a religion type thing. So I guess I wonder if it would be too controversal a subject for the book? would there be enough of an audience that would be willing to read it despite the controversy for it to be worth while?

 

[bigdaddyhybrid]

ShadowSong, I say go ahead and write that book I'd buy 3 copies of it hehe

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

The best way to find out what is acceptable in children's fantasy these days -- as well as what themes are likely to appeal to young readers and therefore to those who publish books for them -- is to read a great deal from the current crop.

A trip to the children's section of any large bookstore, and a conversation with someone who works in the children's department at your local library, should point you in the right direction. You might also get some recommendations from some of the successful YA writers on this site (Mary Hoffman and Mark Robson come immediately to mind).

At the moment, juvenile and YA fantasy encompasses a great deal of variety -- more even than adult fantasy, since children don't have such narrow ideas as some older readers do about what constitutes fantasy -- but in order to appeal to a great many young readers (as well as to the teachers, parents, and librarians who encourage children to read and who might be inclined to steer them in the direction of certain books and not in the direction of others) it's important to think about whether the characters and the overall plot are age appropriate, rather than just individual scenes.

Of course there are always very bright children who love to read about things that are above their supposed level -- but those children are usually gravitating toward adult books anyway, and aren't the readers that children's publishers are trying to attract.

Or, to say briefly what I've just said at great length: The question of what is appropriate in a book for young readers is actually very complex and can only be fairly answered by doing the necessary research for yourself.

 

[Ilvian]

You might be surprised by what kids do and do not see. Often if they have no context for something, they gloss right over it. An interesting way to illustrate this is to go watch some of your favorite movies you enjoyed as a child. You might notice quite a few things that didn't register at a younger age.

I just did this with Goonies and freaked out a bit. That movie is kinda dirty...

I just dug up some old books from my childhood that my sister wanted for her kids. Old disney books have drunken characters all the time. But keep in mind these books are circa 1960. It seems more recently that either people are a bit more concerned with what might "harm" a child's mind, or the broadcasting tools available to the few moral crusaders have become much more powerful. Whichever it is, Teresa's above advice is probably the best thing you could do to test the waters.

 

[misscousins]

Hmm, when I was little I was also afraid of some parts in the goonies, and even pinnochio as weird as it sounds! Yet I could sit and watch Dracula, critters, gremlins and wishmaster and be fine!

However, I have to admit, I was one of these children of which their mother was religious and if anything mentioned anything to do with witchcraft in a way which is close to reality, she would not allow it in the house. Thankfully as I have got older I've helped broaden her mind a little and helped her understand more natural religions by explaining certain things, and now shes more opened to what is allowed in the house as far as books and movies go.

I find it a little strange how people think, an evil Mesopotamian genie is okay for their 10yr old to watch, but something like pratical magic isn't!

 

[jeff.s.p]

I just recently watched a few minutes of Disney’s Dumbo. There’s a lengthy hallucination scene brought on by an accidental drunkenness.
Perfectly acceptable in 1940’s, and no doubt hilarious.. Watching it again after 20 years, ..I found it kind of creepy.

My point being that just because something is accepted today may have different overtones in years to come.


Still, drunkenness has been a catalyst for humor since the beginning of storytelling In ancient days.
Just depends how it portrayed.

 

[Blackrook]

I think you're right about Dumbo. The "Pink Elephants on Parade" song would never be allowed today.

I've also noticed that all the scary endings of the Grimm's Faiytales have been sanitized to protect our delicate children.

Political correctness has abolished other stories, like Little Black Sambo and Huckleberry Finn.

It's interesting how our society has more restrictive in what is allowed in children's fiction. At the same time, our society's morals have collapsed.

A seeming contradiction, or is it?

 

[dustinzgirl]

You know, I find it increasingly sad in our society that many things now have negative political undertones that shouldn't be there at all. I could name off a ton of them, but I'm not going to.

As far as drunks go, I don't see a problem with it. Most preteens know what drunk is, but there has to be a cautionary moral to it, I think. Which is why most books make the drunk a comedian fool, because they are all saying 'look, if you drink, you are going to look like a fool' and that is fine. I have not come across a children book that glorifies drinking, but there are a lot of commercials and television shows that do, so you have to make sure that you are not making it something awesome that everyone wants to do.

And some general thoughts about kids books that I have come up with;

Since I have kids, these are the things I really hate in childrens books--

Complicated words. Yes, kids are smart (my kids are geniuses, and perfect) but the more complicated the word, the harder it is for a parent to explain it when reading a bed time story after working a ten hour shift. For example, superfluous--why would that word be in a book for 9-12 year olds? Seriously. Easy to define words. Its ok if they are long words, I don't mind that, but words that are easy to explain!

It also depends on your age group and the type of kid you are writing for.

Now, I would think that most parents wouldn't mind alternative lifestyles. That is fine. But, if you are writing for the under 13 age group, nothing more than hand holding and a light peck on the cheek is appropriate for my kids. No daytime TV type of themes, I don't let my kids watch daytime TV because its full of selfish people, and that's just sad. Most childrens books only have one selfish bad person, who learns how to be a nice person.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

The stories collected by Grimm were not originally intended for children. They were meant for blood-thirsty adults. Also, every generation retells these stories to appeal to contemporary sensibilities. Grimm, for instance, actually added violence to some of the stories between the earliest edition and the last one printed during his lifetime.

Children today are exposed to plenty of violence, and not all current children's editions of Grimm's Fairy Tales are sanitized versions. The idea that they are is one of those things that people accept simply because everyone says so, but anyone who does a little research into the subject can tell you that this is not the case. There are versions for very young children that leave out some of the more gratuitous violence; at the same time, there are versions for small children that don't. However, I have always found the idea that there is some virtue in hardening children at an early age a curious one.

As for the subject of drunkenness in children's books and films, that may have been more acceptable in the past because juvenile alcoholism and drug use weren't a problem. Also, so many children these days grow up in homes where one or both parents have drinking problems, they might not find much humor in scenes of adult intoxication (even if the adults aren't precisely human).

 

[Blackrook]

I would not read my children stories of grotesque violence, that is not what I'm talking about.

But many of the stories have been changed to remove death as a consequence of foolishness. For example, the Three Little Pigs story loses all meaning when the first two little pigs escape death for their foolishness in building inadequate housing.

It's a very harsh world out there, and we tell our kids stories to prepare them for it. If we sanitize stories of consequences, our children will not learn the lessons these stories are meant to convey, and will be less prepared to deal with the real world when they are on their own.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

But many of the stories have been changed to remove death as a consequence of foolishness. For example, the Three Little Pigs story loses all meaning when the first two little pigs escape death for their foolishness in building inadequate housing.

Really? No punishment less than being killed and eaten would get the message across?

It seems to me that we don't have to make consequences unrealistically scary in order to prepare our children for real life. In fact, it might be better to teach them about things that could actually happen, if the idea is really to teach them a lesson.

And I think it's actually rather tiresomely Victorian to think that every story must have a moral. Sometimes stories should just be stories, without the heavy-handed lesson.