i get the R+L=J theory, but....

Discussion in 'George R R Martin' started by dooley, Feb 20, 2009.

  1.  
    dooley

    dooley New Member

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    the whole rhaegar + lyanna = jon theory, my only big question about this is... who alive actually knows this? Who's going to be able to tell Jon that he's actually a Targaryen? The whole Rhaegar and Lyanna relationship had to be pretty secretive in the first place, so who was entrusted with this knowledge, other than Ned?

    And if nobody other than Ned knew, who did Ned trust enough to tell? Benjen maybe? But if that really was the case, why would Benjen want Jon to join the Night's Watch, surely he'd know that he'd be destined for greatness? or maybe it was a protective measure.

    But the real question, who's actually CREDIBLE enough to where the "Jon Snow is really Rhaegar's Son" announcement is actually going to matter?

    Nobody would believe it, and what type of problems would that create between Robert's supporters, and Stark followers when it turns out that Lyanna was an adulterer with the ENEMY.

    i don't know, i'm inclined to believe the theory, but it seems like it'd be incredibly difficult to pull off correctly.
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    C Of K

    C Of K Sunset colored eyes

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    The red woman seems to have taken an interest in Jon. I'm not saying that she knows. I'm just saying that I don't know everything she's seen in her fires.

    As far as credibility goes...who needs it in Westeros? People are either going to believe or they won't, but a great stone dragon can go a long way toward convincing many.
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    dooley

    dooley New Member

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    I don't even get what you're trying to say.

    A Great Stone Dragon?

    And Honestly, saying that crediblilty doesn't matter in Westeros, is stupid.
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    Bazza

    Bazza Watcher on the Walls

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    Welcome Dooley, I love R+L=J threads! I was very skeptical of this theory myself but after combing through this forum and re-reading through the book with this theory in mind, you find a great many correlations and future possibilities involving this development! Forgive me if this gets longwinded...

    ----Warning! Spoilers!-----

    Anyways, to answer your major question, there are actually two highly influential characters who know about Jon's true lineage. As the theory goes, Ned comes upon the Tower of Joy in the midst of Lyanna's birthing of Jon. To get inside, Ned and his companions had to defeat the three Kingsguard at its base in mortal combat. As described in the dream, only two survived. Eddard and his most trusted companion, Howland Reed.

    Who is Howland Reed again? He is lord of Greywater Watch, bannerman to House Stark. He is described as one of Eddard's most staunchest companions during the war against the Targaryens by Maester Luwin. Luwin found it extremely odd that Howland did not show up to swear his fealty to Robb during his insurrection against the Lannisters. Instead he sent his two children, presumably to guide Bran to the children of the forest north of the wall. I believe Howland is one of the few who knows of the true threat coming from north of the wall. Howland (presumably) has been holed up in Greywater Watch, deep in the bogs of The Neck throughout the conflicts raging throughout Westeros. In fact, that is precisely where the remnants of Robb's army has fled to, attempting in desperation to enlist Howland's aid to take Moat Calin. Once the Red Wedding occurred it cut them off, and nothing has been heard from them. (That I remember at least) If the remnants of Robb's army hears of a true Stark in the north, would they rally around him?

    Regardless, C of K is correct, if the Lannisters massacre everyone in the Neck who's to know? However this is still one other who knows of Jon's true parentage, and he is in an even more influential position than a noble of the North. This clue can yet again be derived from Eddards dream. The bantering between the Kingsguard and Eddard goes to great pains to highlight where each member of the Kingsguard was during the rebellion, (and where they should have been). Every group of them was guarding one of royal blood. The Kingsguard are also sworn to keep the secrets of the House Targaryen. The only one left of those original seven, Ser Barristan the Bold, would be able to derive this fact if he were not literally informed by Rhaegar himself when fighting beside him in the Trident. If he told him himself, then Ser Barristan would also know the reason why the three most prominent Kingsguard were escorting Lyanna to Dorne: Because Rheagar believed Jon was the Prince that Was Promised and thus needed more protection than Viserys, Aerys or young Aegon. Ser Barristan is now Dany's right hand man, and even offers to tell Dany the secrets kept for House Targaryen's ears only, but he is cut off until a more opportune time. One of those secrets, is likely Jon.

    Whether TPTWP is Jon or Dany, only time will tell.

    There's actually a third person who I think knows about Jon's parentage, but it wouldn't be a very accurate testimony. One of Bran's dreams was described in afterthought. He had a conversation with his father about Jon. Eddard seemed sad to Bran, when talking about Jon, and it was extremely unsettling to him. I actually forget the details, but it seemed like Eddard was trying to tell him about Jon beyond the grave, but Bran didn't like the idea of Jon not being his brother.

    I don't think even Benjen knew, I think Ned kept his secret close to his heart. I don't he knew about the prophecy either, he was sent to the wall to be as far away from King's Landing as possible, a place where even bastards can rise high.

    Robert's and Stark's followers are all but dead. As to the ones that are left, I think they'd turn to anyone whom they think could save them from the Lannisters' and Bolton's wrath. I think Targaryen stability will look pretty attractive after the harsh winter to come.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2009
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    Boaz

    Boaz Thaphireth!

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    dooley, in defense of CoK, I think he's saying "Might makes right." For example, Jaime hasn't had any credibility for fifteen years! Absolutely none... and yet, he's now the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. The only reason he has a job is because his father is fabulously rich, mean s.o.b., his sister is the Queen, and because he could easily kill anyone who challenged him.

    As long as certain forms are observed, people can get away with anything. Many people suspect Ramsay's marriage to Arya is a sham, but they won't stop it. Many people know that Tommen's father is not Robert, yet they still kneel before him. Everyone knew Renly was gay and was not the legal heir, but they flocked to his banner instead of Stannis'... a man of credibility. The Ironborn just selected Euron (a man with a reputation for nastiness) over Victarion (a proven man of valor).

    I'd also like to add people to Bazza's list. He mentioned Howland Reed, Barristan Selmy, and Benjen Stark. There is at least one other person still alive from Aerys II's court who would know... I'm talking about Varys. He was the Master of Whispers during Aerys' rule... if anyone would know the truth about Rhaegar, Elia, and Lyanna, then Varys knows.

    ***Warning! Spoiler, potential spoilers, rumors, and unsubstantiated speculation.***

    There are two other people who have been suspected of still being alive from Aerys' court. First, Jon Connington was Rhaegar's best friend and one-time Hand of Aerys. Being this close to Rhaegar when Lyanna disappeared, he could know the true nature of their relationship... though he'd have been exiled before Jon was born. After the Connington lost the iniative against Jon Arryn in Robert's Rebellion, Aerys banished him. We're told that he died a penniless alcoholic. But there may be connections to show he's actually the Griffon, a leader of a mercenary company of the Free Cities.

    Finally, Elia (Rhaegar's wife) had a best friend... Ashara Dayne. After the deaths of Elia, Rhaegar, Aerys, Lyanna, and Arthur Dayne (Ashara's elder brother) plus the marriage of her beloved Eddard Stark to Catelyn Tully, she reportedly threw herself from the top of a cliff. She was an intimate of Elia's, Rhaegar's, and Eddard's... perhaps Lyanna as well. There has been speculation that she is actually Quaithe, the enigmatic shadowbinder following Dany.
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    Syphon of Oor-Tael

    Syphon of Oor-Tael is going fishing

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    I signed up just for this thread. I think the person who knows the truth about Jon is Howland Reed. Why? He was the only one that survived that the fight at the Tower. Well, other than Ned. But Ned's dead. (...oops, I referenced Pulp Fiction). Why do you think he keeps out of the rest of the world?

    He is the only one that knows, and were the news that Jon is part Targaryen and not actually Ned's child come out, guess who's first in line to kill him?
    Robert! He hates Targaryens so much that he's not even beyond sending people after a child of just 14. Despite all of his love for Lyanna, imagine what he'd do to a Targaryen. Of course, he's now dead, but still. I think that anybody trying to play the game of thrones would love to see the Targaryens dead. After all, they are the true kings.
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    Dagny

    Dagny New Member

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    i wonder if Howland Reed shared his secrets with his children?
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    Syphon of Oor-Tael

    Syphon of Oor-Tael is going fishing

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    Maybe Jojen knows anyway? He and his...whatever it is in English. Greensight? Grasssight? You get my drift. The whole hokey pokey dream "Smith is going to drown" sequence.
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    Boaz

    Boaz Thaphireth!

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    Welcome, Syphon.

    You might find some enjoyment from these discussions of Jon's origins... "promise me, Ned" and "the value of Howland Reed"... SPOILERS: Theory on Jon... The Dragon Has Three Heads... Pure Speculation RE: A Song of Ice and Fire...

    Personally, I believe that Howland and Varys know for certain who Jon's parents are. I also think that Jon Connington and Littlefinger probably also know. I believe that Barristan is so practiced in closing his eyes to the royal family's indiscretions, that he might not know.

    I also think that if Eddard never told Catelyn, nor Rodrik, nor Luwin, then he never told Benjen either.

    Mayhaps, the bittersweet ending includes the fact that we find out that Rhaegar married Lyanna and that Jon is in fact the rightful heir to Aerys II, but that everyone who knows this dies... and Jon lives out his life on The Wall.

    I think you'd also find Everyone Needs A Conspiracy Theory very interesting.

    Pretend Quentin Tarantino was directing HBO's version of ASOIAF... Just picture the scene where Jaime gives Oathkeeper to Brienne...

    Brienne: Who's sword is this?

    Jaime: It's Valyrian Steel, baby.

    Brienne: Who's Valyrian Steel is this?

    Jaime: It's Ned's.

    Brienne: Who's Ned?

    Jaime: Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead.
  10.  
    Syphon of Oor-Tael

    Syphon of Oor-Tael is going fishing

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    I believe the bittersweet ending will be that everybody ends up dead anyway. Valar morghulis, remember? George does not seem the person for a happy ending.
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    C Of K

    C Of K Sunset colored eyes

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    Are you implying that you hate just as many of the characters as you like, Syphon of Oor-Tael?

    In my case, if everyone were to die, there might be very little sweet mixed in with the bitter:)

    Oh, and welcome.
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    Syphon of Oor-Tael

    Syphon of Oor-Tael is going fishing

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    Thanks, C of K. And no, I don't hate many characters. I'm just lukewarm about some of them. Bran, for instance. It's usually the same. He goes into Summer, Jojen pulls him back and they travel on.

    Anyway, the bittersweet ending will be that everybody will die. Probably Jon finds out who he really is then dies one heartbeat later. Things like that.
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    Hilarious Joke

    Hilarious Joke Fool

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    If everyone dies, GRRM will ruin a brilliant series. IMHO.
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    Gambit

    Gambit Here, pick a card.

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    The only way everyone dies is if the others win... Otherwise one of the Westeros factions has to win, even if all the favorites die. Personally, Queen Sansa would be bittersweet to me...
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    viZion

    viZion Arrogant Bastard

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    Combine this:

    with this:

    and you get an extremely bittersweet ending.
  16.  
    Syphon of Oor-Tael

    Syphon of Oor-Tael is going fishing

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    Queen Sansa as in a cynic after her naive dreams when she was young? I could buy that. But what about her sister?
    Nobody ever mentions her.
  17.  
    Gambit

    Gambit Here, pick a card.

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    Arya as queen is more terrifying than bitter sweet. Arya is one of my favorites, but even I am a little worried about where her character could end up. She is well along the path to becoming (if not already) a serial-killer. She is being developed as a weapon of the faceless men. Her ties to House Stark have been buried and hidden away (the symbolism of her hiding needle does suggest that it is still there waiting to be reawoken) and she is beginning to really buy into the assasin theology, ie the gift of death. Without the direction of someone with some strong morality she could emerge as a heartless killing machine. While that would be amazingly bad ass, it would be scary in a queen
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    Hilarious Joke

    Hilarious Joke Fool

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    Perhaps she could start the equivalent of Empress Laseen's Claw in the Malazan books, serving perhaps Danys with her assassinations.

    And then we have the fascinating conflict where Arya is asked to kill her very own sister...
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    Boaz

    Boaz Thaphireth!

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    Arya and Jaime will have that in common... mayhaps, Theon, Sandor, and Stoneheart as well.
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    Hilarious Joke

    Hilarious Joke Fool

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    Interesting! I look forward to the Sandor one most. Gregor is one of the most evil characters in fantasy.

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