Lady Sansa Lannister

[Koopa]

It just occured to me (as it probably occured to the whole lot of you already) that the books made me think about Sansa importance the wrong way.

The importance of Sansa and Tyrions wedding is not his claim on Winterfell, but her claim on Casterly Rock.

I mean when you think about it, we 'know' the following things.

- Bran and Rickon are still alive and so far since Bran cannot produce children it will be Rickon whose heirs will rule Winterfell.
- We know that Sansa as Alayne is gonna marry hardying but only if she can woo him AND if Tyrion dies, wich i do not see happening soon.
- We know Tyrion is the rightful heir to Casterly Rock ever since jaime joined the Kingsguard (predating AFFC that is)
- We know that Cersei is on a path of selfdestruction, thus she wont be sitting the Iron Throne for long, this opens a path for Dany and hence most like Tyrion.
- Robert is very much still alive regardless of Petyr scheming
- Edmure is alive as well
(with the last two i mean that most like Robert will sickly as he is come to rule against all odds winterfell, and edmure seems not done as well)

Hence Snsa has no claim on Winterfell, no claim on Riverrun, no claim on the Vale BUT through marriage with the very much alive Tyrion a claim on Casterly Rock, prehaps the Dwarf and the Beaty will indeed come to pass.

 

[Culhwch]

(with the last two i mean that most like Robert will sickly as he is come to rule against all odds winterfell, and edmure seems not done as well)

Nice lateral thinking, but one thing - how does Robert Arryn come to rule Winterfell?

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

I think there was a missing full stop after "odds" in KB's post.
It's a valid point but I do wonder whether Sansa will ask/get the marriage annulled or disregarded somehow. She may have 'grown up' a little since her fanciful days in AGoT but she still hates/is repulsed by Tyrion for a) being a member of the family which executed her father and held her hostage under threat of death and b) he aint exactly a looker, know what I mean?

 

[Funky Cthulu]

I think there was a missing full stop after "odds" in KB's post.
It's a valid point but I do wonder whether Sansa will ask/get the marriage annulled or disregarded somehow. She may have 'grown up' a little since her fanciful days in AGoT but she still hates/is repulsed by Tyrion for a) being a member of the family which executed her father and held her hostage under threat of death and b) he aint exactly a looker, know what I mean?

Being a Lannister in name may not be so repulsive if it comes with revenge included. I imagine Sansa would want to see definite proof of Tyrion's death before playing that card, though. And she is still quite scared of Cersei, most likely, so would be reluctant to tangle with her unless she held all the aces, as it were.

It would be a very interesting plot twist, but I believe under the religious and civil law of Westeros, unconsummated marriages aren't considered binding - the relationship can't be considered marriage until that has taken place. IIRC, that was how Margaery got a second chance with Joffrey, even tho a priest had said the ritual over her and Renly.
Of course, Sansa could just lie about it.
If Sansa were to make the claim, and be successful, there would be a lot of lesser Lannisters gunning for her, too - they wouldn't want to see her re-marry (presuming Tyrion is dead, or believed dead) and risk the land going to any children she might have in the future.
Is it possible that Kevan could rightfully claim Casterly Rock before Sansa, due to being a closer blood relation to Tywin?

 

[Koopa]

Nice lateral thinking, but one thing - how does Robert Arryn come to rule Winterfell?

Winterfell is a typo, I meant he was gonna remain alive and become the true lord of the Vale instead of Petyr

 

[Koopa]

Being a Lannister in name may not be so repulsive if it comes with revenge included. I imagine Sansa would want to see definite proof of Tyrion's death before playing that card, though. And she is still quite scared of Cersei, most likely, so would be reluctant to tangle with her unless she held all the aces, as it were.

It would be a very interesting plot twist, but I believe under the religious and civil law of Westeros, unconsummated marriages aren't considered binding - the relationship can't be considered marriage until that has taken place. IIRC, that was how Margaery got a second chance with Joffrey, even tho a priest had said the ritual over her and Renly.
Of course, Sansa could just lie about it.
If Sansa were to make the claim, and be successful, there would be a lot of lesser Lannisters gunning for her, too - they wouldn't want to see her re-marry (presuming Tyrion is dead, or believed dead) and risk the land going to any children she might have in the future.
Is it possible that Kevan could rightfully claim Casterly Rock before Sansa, due to being a closer blood relation to Tywin?

I figured Margaery got a second chance since she was widowed.

 

[Commonmind]

I agree with quite a bit of what you've said (though the topic title may spoil it for those who haven't read the particular book where they wed)

 

[Werthead]

Sansa has no claim on Casterly Rock. The marriage was never consummated, thus it is invalid.

 

[Koopa]

The wedding is valid, Margaery claims she never slept with renly, but the marriage was valid as well.

She is considered Tyrion's wife by the rest of the world, regardless of the consummation, she is in fact at the moment Sansa Lannister and not Sansa Stark.

The only thing that can be important about the consummation, is that as long as it has not happened, the marriage can be disbounded. As long as this has not happened it reamins valid, and thus she remains married to Tyrion

What is interesting to note though is that we do not know what actually happened with the marriage between Tyrion and Tysha, was it ever lawfully disbounded?

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

A couple of things....

The Tyrion/Tysha marriage could be most likely declared invalid by a religious leader and until this latest High Septon could have been easily accomplished. Tywin being a stickler for his families honor would have most likely accomplished this.

Because Sansas claim runs through Tyrion her claim is now forfeit. Being a traitor to the crown, a regicide, and a mishapen little man to boot, means his claim to the Lannister lands are gone. Thus Sansa's along with it Im afraid. Especially because all lands and titles are granted at the behest of the crown....

 

[Boaz]

Remember Lancel was given the Darry lands by Joffrey, but his father found it helpful to marry Amerei "Gatehouse Ami" Frey who happens to be a Darry on her mother's side. Marrying a Darry helped cement the Lannister control of Darry lands... theoretically speaking anyway, it's all up in the air with Lancel joining the Faith.

I think Sansa's prime value (and this is the path that Martin seems to be pursuing) is as the true daughter and eldest living child (my apologies to the Jon=Ned's ******* crowd) of Eddard Stark. But I like your thinking outside the box, Kiwi. She does have value as a Lannister.

Margaery, as Renly's widow, inherited all of Renly's support and sold it to the highest bidder. (Who has more money to bid than the Lannisters?) If Dany, the Martells, Littlefinger, or the Greyjoys were to gain the Iron Throne, then they could redeal out the fiefs. One of these Houses supplanting the Lannisters would probably mean the certain extinction of House Lannister. But since Tyrion, prior to regicide and patricide, was the legal heir of Casterly Rock it seems to me that his wife would be a good bartering point and useful piece in The Game.

Remember how House Baratheon got started? Orys, ******* son of a Targaryen king, was charged with eradicating the original Baratheons. He did so with extreme predjudice killing all Baratheons except the daughter of Lord Baratheon. He married her and took the name Baratheon for his own. So, if Dany wanted to keep the name Lannister but wanted to change the people, she could Daario or one of her favorites marry Sansa Lannister and become the new Lord Lannister. Of course, any ruler could declare Sansa's marriage annulled and make her new husband Lord Stark. (Just think how much time she'd save by not having to re-embroider her initials on all of her hand kerchiefs.)

Also, remember Catelyn was originally betrothed to Brandon Stark. Ned just jumped in to secure the alliance and his family's honor. This is essentially what happened between Margaery and Tommen. So Tyrion is on the lam, when he's executed the Lannisters can just marry Sansa to another blonde libertine.

By herself Sansa cannot claim Casterly Rock, but she is valuable to the Throne in rewarding generals and heroes.

 

[TK-421]

Yes, Yes, No, NO, Yes, Yes...

Sansa has no claim on Casterly Rock but has a claim on Winterfell if for all intents and purposes Bran and Rickon remain "dead". Maybe it will take a few dragons to sort it all out in the end. Hope she's not on the losing side.

 

[devilsgrin]

I'm of the opinion that Sansa has no claim whatsoever to Casterley Rock and the Title Lady Lannister (as opposed to being Lady Sansa Lannister, wife of Tyrion Lannister, who recall is not a Lord proper...).
Sansa's value, as TK states, is as the legitimate heir to Winterfell... legally at least considering Bran and Rickon are dead. that is the reason the lannister's married her to Tyrion. Tyrion would be Lord of Winterfell if Sansa was elevated to The Lady Stark, as according to what has been presented in the books, wives, even if the legitimate holder of the title, are in their husbands power.

I foresee calamitous event occurring for House Lannister, they're going to suffer much as the Stark's have...

 

[Koopa]

I'm of the opinion that Sansa has no claim whatsoever to Casterley Rock and the Title Lady Lannister (as opposed to being Lady Sansa Lannister, wife of Tyrion Lannister, who recall is not a Lord proper...).
Sansa's value, as TK states, is as the legitimate heir to Winterfell... legally at least considering Bran and Rickon are dead. that is the reason the lannister's married her to Tyrion. Tyrion would be Lord of Winterfell if Sansa was elevated to The Lady Stark, as according to what has been presented in the books, wives, even if the legitimate holder of the title, are in their husbands power.

I foresee calamitous event occurring for House Lannister, they're going to suffer much as the Stark's have...

But thats the whole point i am trying to make, in the books we get the viewpoint of the Lannisters for most regarding Sansa importance, they see her as a way to control the north.

However, as wife to Tyrion she in indeed a Lannister now, Tywin is dead, if the whole cersei thingie did not happen he would now be Lord of casterly Rock. Seeing as Cersei her demise will most likely come and there is chance that Tyrion will come back with a vengeance tailgating Daenerys.

With Cersei demise and as you said possible bad things coming for the lannisters a whole range of opportunities open up. perhaps the new ruler (when cersei falls will reinstigate Tyrion, perhaps war will devastate the Westlands and the lordlings) In any case their is chance (theorywise to me that is) that Sansa will be able to claim casterly Rock as wife to Tyrion. For instance if Tyrion somehow is reinstigated as Lord of Casterly Rock and then dies, Sansa is able to rule Lady Lysa wise. And so on...

As for the Bran and Rickon thingie, what you say is true, but we (the readers) know that Bran and Rickon are very much alive and though it is important to affairs in Westeros that she is belived dead, it may not be the only important part of it. Especially when you consider the title of one of the following books.

 

[Boaz]

If the Lannisters fall and are replaced by anyone besides the Starks, then Sansa may be used in conjunction with Casterly Rock and not Winterfell. Imagine a Targaryen, Martell or Greyjoy victory. Now imagine that Littlefinger ends up on the winning side... it's not hard for me to do. He's already turned his fostering into Master of Coin which he traded up for Lord of Harrenhal which he then turned into Lord Protector of the Vale. I imagine it would be nigh impossible for Baelish to become King, except if he marries Dany. But what will he do with his current job? I can see him aiding Dany and being rewarded with Casterly Rock when the Lannisters are dead. Then he could marry Sansa (the mirror of Cat) Lannister while claiming she was the wife of the last legal heir (I'm sure Baelish could produce some document with Tywin's seal that says Tyrion is Tywin's heir) just to add some sense of continuity, even though it's a sham.

Seriously, if Littlefinger could use Sansa to gain either Casterly Rock or Winterfell which do you think he'd choose? It's a no-brainer.

Now if Dany wins, how many Lannisters will she kill? Just Jaime and Cersei? Will the killing extend to Kevan, Lancel, and Emmon Frey? Or will every blonde person with a tri-syllabic family name go to the headsman? Now, how complicit will Sansa be in exterminating the Lannisters? Would she forsake Winterfell (leaving it to Rickon or Jeyne Poole) and join with Dany and Baelish in order to achieve complete revenge upon the murderers of her father, mother, brother(s), and sister? In this way she'd replace their seed with the Starks... kind of like Princess Isabelle in Braveheart.

If this could happen... if Baelish can see this... if Baelish is going to support Dany... then he won't be too hasty in marrying Sansa to Harry the Heir. If Lord of the Vale is Littlefinger's lodestone, then perhaps he'll marry Sansa to Harry. Yet, I think his ambition is at least to be Hand of the King. Controlling Casterly Rock (the source of the greatest income in the Kingdom), being Warden of the West, and being too clever to leave alone to scheme would all make him as a very attractive choice as Hand.

 

[TK-421]

Very good Boaz, but that, of course, would depend on how much Petyr knows about Dany. He does not seem like the type who would throw his support and grand mastermind plans behind a little girl who supposedly has dragons. And does he even know about the dragons. I thought that report to the Small Council was made AFTER Petyr left KL.

 

[Koopa]

Very good Boaz, but that, of course, would depend on how much Petyr knows about Dany. He does not seem like the type who would throw his support and grand mastermind plans behind a little girl who supposedly has dragons. And does he even know about the dragons. I thought that report to the Small Council was made AFTER Petyr left KL.

Its Petyr we are talking about, he would not allow himself to be left behind informationwise. I am sure he is well informed of all things. (This is why i doubt that dragonstone is truly fallen)

 

[Weasel Soup]

Ah..Hopefully Dragonstone doesnt fall before Stannis can manage to get some obsidian mined and sent off to the wall.

 

[Raven]

Sansa does have a theoretical claim on Casterly Rock, yes... but it's a very weak one, in almost all circumstances. Let's put aside her husband being a convicted regicide (and her own suspected involvement in that) - as KiwiBird says, that might not matter to a non-Lannister.

Still, what do you have even then? Marriage claims are not as strong as blood claims: the books show several examples of this. Wives typically only inherit in their own right (as opposed to being put in temporary charge) when there is pretty much no other option. The Hornwoods and the Whents are examples of this happening, and in each case there was simply no legitimate blood heir at all. (And at that, the issue of whether these ladies actually 'inherited' in the full sense was unclear, since neither had an heir to pass the land on to. It's suggested that Lady Hornwood could do so - but the alternative of simply legitimising a ******* is regarded as viable.)

Such a scenario is unlikely to crop up with the Lannisters - they're 'damnably fertile', after all. They're not as bad as the Freys, but there are numerous Lannister cousins kicking around, including several young enough to be effectively controlled by a non-Lannister monarch. And if you run out of those, there are a fair amount of acknowledged bastards too, including unwed females.

Perhaps a non-Lannister monarch wouldn't want a Lannister by blood to inherit, though? But in this case, Sansa adds nothing to simply installing your ally of choice regardless. She's never even seen Casterly Rock, and pretty much no-one in the West has ever even met her. Her only connection is a marriage to a member of the family who wasn't particularly well-loved in the neighbourhood himself. So her presence is unlikely to make the common folk or nobles any happier. They might even resent it.

(The comparison with the Darry case doesn't hold, by the way, because Ami is a Darry by blood, not marriage - and an uncomsummated marriage at that, which might not matter legally, but probably would in terms of public perception.)

So I think this is a dead end. I can't see that Sansa's claim is strong enough to rival that of a Lannister by blood, or that she will ever be in a position to press what little claim she has.

 

[Funky Cthulu]

SNIPPED
So I think this is a dead end. I can't see that Sansa's claim is strong enough to rival that of a Lannister by blood, or that she will ever be in a position to press what little claim she has.

I'd agree with your estimation, Raven. I also think that if Sansa was perceived to have a serious shot at gaining control of the Rock, she'd have a snowball's chance of hell of avoiding the inevitable assassins. Those Lannisters are ruthless, and now count the Starks as major enemies.
Still, a very interesting tangent, Kiwi.