George has updated!!

[Pyan]

OUCH. That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Martin at his worst is still far better than Jordan at his best.

I don't know - I got the impression they were converging.
I read AFfC with mounting amazement that anyone could get away with this - and when I read the postword, I nearly threw the thing across the room. I just hope that ADwD makes up for it.

 

[Boaz]

I thought AFFC was relevant to really introduce the other players affecting the story's outcome. These are the Greyjoys (Euron, Victarion, Asha, and Aeron, hmmmm, it just occurred to me that Aaron, Moses' brother, was also a younger brother and prophet), the Martells (Doran, Arianne, and the Sand Snakes), and the Faith (the sparrows and the militant orders).

Perhaps the main point of AFFC was to continue the development of Jaime Lannister. If AFFC or ADWD had just picked up five years after the Red Wedding, Joffrey's death, and the fall of Tywin Lannister, would we have even recognized the changed man Jaime will become? I, for one, would probably have blamed GRRM for not filling us in on how Jaime did a 180.

After Jaime, Cersei's development, or should I say devolution, was germane to the Iron Throne. Cersei is evil and she could have been used to introduce more evil characters, but her descent into foolishness and the introduction of her fools was fairly interesting. Joff's petulance and Cersei's debauchery are there to recall the totally amoral reign of Aerys II.

Also moving smaller plots along were Arya, Sam, Sansa, and Brienne. Arya's story is her own personal story, imo. Sam's story is being used to set up the return of magic, the return of Dragons, and the introductions of Rh'llor and The Other. Sansa's story is the story of the Starks. Brienne's story and her subsequent death is the author's reminder to not get used to supposedly central characters. GRRM likes to lead us down dead ends and/or set up road blocks.

In the ninth chapter of AGOT, Jaime is shown to be in an incestuous relationship with his sister and tries to murder a child. I never thought that he'd become my favorite character in this series. For me, the Lannister brothers are the two most believable, enthralling, and thought-provoking characters by far. Even though AFFC did not have Tyrion, I still enjoyed it due to Jaime's soul searching, his repentance (though he doesn't yet admit it to himself), his newfound graciousness, and his ruthlessness.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Alright a couple of things....

Am I the only one that remembers the first couple of Wheel of Time books that drew me in....or maybe you do remember and youre bitter about the next six books that killed the series in merciless fashion. Regardless the first three were good, definitely better than Martins worst. Im not sure what his worst is but it was probably used to house break a puppy or something.

I personally loved AFFC. Well maybe not loved.....but I enjoyed it. Maybe Martin didnt follow the characters he's built over the series...but thats his hallmark.....cycling through characters like an addict cycles through needles. AFFC moved along some plots, not all of em. Im okay with that, its the journey not the destination that is invaluable.....except in Jordans case, that journey is just too damn long.

Oh and as always I agree with Boaz.

 

[Boaz]

Before I get to the meat of my post (to which some of you might say, "Implying that your post will contain substantive content is at best unsubstantiated speculation and at worst wishful thinking") I'd like to propose that everyone use the following quote as their Chronicles signature.

Oh and as always I agree with Boaz.

Last summer, I read The Wheel of Time for the same reason I read War and Peace... I was either going to see what the fuss is about or I could at least say "I've read it." Now I can say, "I've read it, but I don't know what the fuss is about."

If I made a fuss about it, I'd say how wonderfully the series started. Now just listen to my paraphrase, I'm sure I won't do it justice...

A young man from a remote pastoral village finds evil creatures of legend searching for him. He and his three best friends, on the advice of a wizard, flee for the city of refuge. They barely escape the minions of Sauron, umm, I meant the Dark Lord by taking a ferry over the river. Gandalf, sorry, I meant the Wizard and a Ranger (who just happens to be a Prince) get the Hobbits, whoops! I meant, the young man and his friends safely to the city of refuge. Upon leaving the city, the Fellowship tries to escape their pusuers by hiding in Moria, err, I mean an ancient abandoned city. Then Orcs attack and break the Fellowship.

Isn't that a wonderful beginning to a fantasy series? I'm surprised no one ever used it before.

 

[TomServo]

Isn't that a wonderful beginning to a fantasy series? I'm surprised no one ever used it before.

Hilarious, I've got another one for ya. Ever notice that Jordan's region where the bad guys live is also a wasteland that is divided from the rest of the area by mountains. Also it contains its own Mt Doom, although I think he threw an 'h' in there to make it Mt. Dhoom.

 

[Pyan]

Yes, but ever since LotR, every Dark Land seems to be a wasteland that is protected on at least three sides by impassable mountains - with just one secret weak point..........

 

[Funky Cthulu]

Hilarious, I've got another one for ya. Ever notice that Jordan's region where the bad guys live is also a wasteland that is divided from the rest of the area by mountains. Also it contains its own Mt Doom, although I think he threw an 'h' in there to make it Mt. Dhoom.

And the good ol' 'Trolloc's' = troll + orcs. I recall they were created by the Dark Lord (who also turned his eye upon you if you spoke his true name - original!)
I started reading the series when I was 13 - and that was 10 years ago. I couldn't pick them up again now and enjoy them, my horizons have broadened too much. Some of his ideas have stuck with me as memorable, but I swear the man just poured everything he ever thought of or heard about into the series and then tried to make it fit together. His battle of the sexes got on my nerves, too. Why did the female characters sniff so much? Hidden cocain addiction?

Nah, Martins worst writing could never be as bad as Jordan.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Are you discounting the other things he created? From what I understand (gleaned from his thread on this website) he's got reams of material on all the cultures around his world. Sure, go ahead and call it derivative....but at this point everything has derivative elements to it. He just happened to emulate the single greatest fantasy series ever. Is that whats stuck in yer craw?

I see your minds are made up....Ill stop trying to be the voice of reason. I enjoyed the first half of the series....and you cant convince you didnt as well....ya cant ya cant ya cant.

Oh, and as always Boaz drinks paint thinner....

 

[Commonmind]

Debasing Jordan is fruitless. He's a successful writer, with an avid fan-base and while his stories may borrow elements from other works of literature, there's scents of that throughout quite a bit of the genre. The Dark Lord concept is archetypal and has been done many times; it's difficult to get away from this cliche whenever you're attempting to create an antagonist that is not flesh-and-blood. Beyond those familar elements, the themes and plot of his story differ to a very great degree. And while I might agree that his later works are all quite sloggish, I can't, in my right mind, discredit him as a writer. His style is different. It isn't that he's not capable or that he's an amateur at his craft, it's that he's chosen to take a different approach to telling his story. Though many of us dislike this route, it's a bit unfair to belittle his work based on our differing tastes.

Jordan is Jordan, Martin is Martin, it's that simple. Comparing the two or making jests about their work is pretentious; considering how much work either of them have put into their respective worlds and the level of dedication it takes to bring that world to an audience. Jordan was literally dying and still working his fingers to the bone during those few moments of lucidity he was gifted. Martin has tolerated an extremely demanding schedule and continues to devote himself to writing as much as possible. Any one of us that feels the need to take stabs at either writer, should first consider that our preferences and tastes do not decide the skill of a writer we do not like.

 

[Boaz]

I started reading the series when I was 13 - and that was 10 years ago. I couldn't pick them up again now and enjoy them, my horizons have broadened too much.

This aptly describes my feeling for The Sword of Shanarra.

<Boaz stands up on soap box>

It starts out... A young man in a remote, pastoral village is warned by a Wizard to flee from the evil creatures seeking him. So he flees with his short, stalwart, simple best friend. In Bree, err, a town they meet a Ranger (who just happens to be a Prince) who guides them to the hidden city where they arrive just in time to join the Council. The Council appoints a Fellowship to take the young man to defeat the Dark Lord. Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli, Legolas, and Legolas' brother are chosen to assist Frodo and Sam. Amazingly, Gandalf falls into a pit while battling a Balrog.

My good friend Aegon uses words like "derivative" and "emulate." He is a kinder and more gracious man than I am.

But I admit that I also love some of the worst pulp (or is that a double negative?) ever written... E.R. Burroughs' John Carter of Mars stories.

And Commonmind (our voice of common sense) has reminded me to walk a mile in Terry Brooks' shoes.

<Boaz steps off the soap box>

Why am I so negative today? Why am I so self-righteous? I think I'm going stir crazy waiting for ADWD. I probably need to abstain from these boards for a while. Thanks C.

Oh, and as always Boaz drinks paint thinner...

You know, I lick my brushes when I paint my lead miniatures. Paint thinner couldn't hurt at this point...

 

[Funky Cthulu]

SNIPPED
Any one of us that feels the need to take stabs at either writer, should first consider that our preferences and tastes do not decide the skill of a writer we do not like.

Dude, no one here said that our preferences define reality for everyone else. We're expressing our opinions - you can call that 'taking a stab' if you wish, at hard working writers, but that is what readers everywhere do when they discuss books. As it happens, I don't find Jordan's work engaging or well written - that's not a personal dig at him, but I won't water things down because the writer is ill. Did anyone here launch a personal attack on GRRM or RJ by discussing whether they liked their books?
Personally, I find it pretentious when people show up and adopt a holier than thou attitude to tell the other posters how they should write their posts.

 

[Commonmind]

If you're only awaiting ADWD I envy you. Though ADWD is the book I'm anticipating most, I've got about a dozen series on the shelf that require new installments. I'm as anxious as an under-sexed Italian being given a live, hands-on tour of Victoria's Secret spring line. Look, I'm so stir-crazy I'm making bad analogies, and it isn't even late enough to blame it on the time.

And don't abstain from the boards, trust me. Before you know what's happening you'll be grabbing every Tom-Dick-and-Jane you can get your hands on and shaking them profusely, for no good reason. You'll have collected a series of assault-and-battery charges before you realize the hostility stems from not being able to rub elbows with all of us: the only individuals that understand, and are willing to share your pain with you. We're the collective group therapy for fellow Martin addicts; without us you'll just be a nervous piss-pot without anyone to commiserate with.

 

[Commonmind]

Dude, no one here said that our preferences define reality for everyone else. We're expressing our opinions - you can call that 'taking a stab' if you wish, at hard working writers, but that is what readers everywhere do when they discuss books. As it happens, I don't find Jordan's work engaging or well written - that's not a personal dig at him, but I won't water things down because the writer is ill. Did anyone here launch a personal attack on GRRM or RJ by discussing whether they liked their books?
Personally, I find it pretentious when people show up and adopt a holier than thou attitude to tell the other posters how they should write their posts.

I never adopted a holier-than-though attitude toward anyone. I said belittling an author based on your personal preference was pretentious, and it is. If you don't like a particular piece of literature, that does not allow you the right to state that the author of that work lacks talent or writing ability. A writer is not suddenly incapable of writing a viable story based on whether or not you enjoyed said story. Having an opinion is one thing, having an opinion and expressing that opinion tactfully is another.

An opinion - "I didn't like his work, I prefered this person's work instead."

Taking a stab - "Hah, that guy's writing sucks!"

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Umm....Im gonna step away from this discussion. Everything I said was tongue-in-cheek. I understand you guys who dislike Jordan (Funky, Boaz, Arya, McNeal etc....even add TK just because) have no comprehension of his superior mastery of the english language (see? thats a joke as well). But Im stepping from this fingerpointing....thats not my style unless we're discussing politics.

Oh and as always, Boaz eats lead, sips paint thinner and licks asbestos covered walls.

 

[Pyan]

Oh and as always, Boaz eats lead, sips paint thinner and licks asbestos covered walls.

Not all at the same time, surely - you'd lose the delicate flavour of the asbestos!

Everyone puts out a duff book at times - and I think it's more likely later on in a career, because of the temptation to not go that extra mile because you know it's going to sell like hot cakes anyway, and you've the fan-base already.
How many times do you read the comment "Oh I really liked the earlier books, but he/she's gone off a bit now!" or something similar? From Jordan to Rowling - it's probably one of the commonest comments.

Debasing Jordan is fruitless. He's a successful writer, with an avid fan-base

I agree - and it doesn't matter a tinker's damn what I think or say, because no-one is going to make a decision on whether to read WoT based on what my opinion is - it's just an opinion, and if I can't express it here, of all places, then we all might as well go home!

So to speak!

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

My father told me once when I was a young lad and got into a fight at school over whether or not Spiderman was jewish.....

"Son, others are gonna disagree with ya in life. You just gotta respect their right to be wrong."

Pretty much sums up my way of thinking.

 

[Pyan]

Exactly! I long ago worked out that you aren't ever going to change an opinion, especially of something as personal as literary preference, by any sort of argument - and you run a real risk of permanently alienating the person you're arguing with.

 

[TK-421]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....Huh?....did I miss something?

Oh, just some of the same old complaints.

And, Oi vei, Aegon! (Actually, I've never read Jordan and can give 2 s#$% about some wheel of time thing.)

 

[AryaUnderfoot]

Sorry, but nothing is going to stop me from taking pot-shots at Jordan. You may ask what the point is, or insist that until I understand every element of the author's life and efforts, I won't be able to fully comprehend his/her work or base any opinions on it. I suppose that the same could be said for the rave reviews we all give Martin for his work. Perhaps because we don't know everything there is to know about his trials and tribulations, we're not giving him his due. Who cares? The point of this dicussion board is to discuss books and writers. If we can't do that without being chastised, then there's no point in logging on.

Personally, the only reason I keep coming back to this is because you people are the only ones who truly understand what it's like to pick up a book and become completely immersed in it. And that goes for Jordan's work, too. I was immersed and tore through the first three. Then again, I had just graduated from college, was living at home in a small town with my parents, and didn't have a job at the time... I will thank Jordan for his fourth and following books for getting me out of the house and onto the job search with the fervor I needed.

 

[Commonmind]

No one is chastising anyone for having an opinion, or for discussing an author's work. Maybe I didn't make my point clear. As mature readers, why is it that we cannot discuss those works intelligently, without the need of resorting to subtle insults or "pot-shots?" Is it wrong of me to assume we can have an opinionated discussion without belittling the author? I'm sorry if it comes off as haughty or pretentious, but I never asked anyone to keep their opinions to themselves, I only suggested it be done tactfully, and without claiming an author is incapable of writing because a particular book they've written didn't cater to your tastes. Where's the fault in that?

My "opinion" is that we should be able to discuss literature without making cracks. Other's feel their opinion allows them this right. Since we're in agreement that everyone is entitled to an opinion, we can just agree to disagree and get back on-topic.