Jon Snow's true parentage...

[hadd]

But you're not considering that Jon got the "best of both worlds", and he's both a Stark AND a Targ. R+L=J

Ah yes...Forgot for a second that we were considering Lyanna as the mother.
Well I would find it peculiar that Jon has no physical traits of the Targaryen's then.

I'd rather believe that his mother was somewhere from the south, from Dorne... And I have a hunch that we might get some clues from the citadel (being Sam's chapters).

I just think it would be too cliche if in the end Dany and Jon would be riding dragons and Ghost would be on the 3rd dragon or something...haha

 

[The Imp]

So I was watching the second episode of GOT with my wife tonight, and I was trying to explain the possbilities of Jon's real parentage, telling her that I beleived that Lyanna and Rahegar were his true parents. Her response was something like "so he should be King then"

I was so proud of her even though I think she won't continue watching for much longer. She finds the violence disturbing

 

[Needle]

So I was watching the second episode of GOT with my wife tonight, and I was trying to explain the possbilities of Jon's real parentage, telling her that I beleived that Lyanna and Rahegar were his true parents. Her response was something like "so he should be King then"

I was so proud of her even though I think she won't continue watching for much longer. She finds the violence disturbing

Yea, Mrs. Imp! But now I must admit to feeling incredibly stupid! I had only considered Jon's being a Targ as regards to helping (supporting) Dany. It never crossed my feeble excuse for a mind that as Rheagar's eldest Jon himself would be king. Except as I think this through he would (could?) still be a ******* yes? Ok I have confused myself further!

 

[The Imp]

Yea, Mrs. Imp! But now I must admit to feeling incredibly stupid! I had only considered Jon's being a Targ as regards to helping (supporting) Dany. It never crossed my feeble excuse for a mind that as Rheagar's eldest Jon himself would be king. Except as I think this through he would (could?) still be a ******* yes? Ok I have confused myself further!

Jon's status would still be that of *******, unless Rhaegar and Lyanna married in secret, or if Robb's "legitimizing" him woul somehow have meaning in regard to a larger claim. One thing is for certain though. Robert's ******* (Gendry) is deemed important enough by Cersei to hunt and presumably kill. Jon having Targ blood would have to be problematic for a King (Tommen) who wasn't the true son of the ursurper King, who in turn wasn't the true King because he was a usurper.

Simply put, Jon being the only living male with Targ blood has to be a big problem, and IMO THAT was what Lyanna made Ned promise. She didn't make Ned promise to raise the child as if it were his own, but rather, she made him promise not to tell who his father was for fear of the danger it would put him in. Makes perfect sense from where i'm sitting.

I'll thank my wife for putting me on that line of thought, and Needle, we went for a one hour walk and spent the entire time talking about Game of Thrones. I think she's hooked

 

[Delran Stark]

That may be true Imp, but I do not think Jon will leave the wall. Even if the others are defeated and obliterated, there will still be thing beyond the wall that will pose a threat to Westeros. He may support Dany in the game.

Also Lyanna may have made Ned promise not to reveal Jon's parents. If someone found out he is Lyanna son, there will be the question of the father and "guess who?"

Sorry about grammar errors...I am too tired, having slept only 2h he other night

 

[The Imp]

That may be true Imp, but I do not think Jon will leave the wall. Even if the others are defeated and obliterated, there will still be thing beyond the wall that will pose a threat to Westeros. He may support Dany in the game.

Also Lyanna may have made Ned promise not to reveal Jon's parents. If someone found out he is Lyanna son, there will be the question of the father and "guess who?"

Sorry about grammar errors...I am too tired, having slept only 2h he other night

You may be right, but I've always held it as a certainty that Jon is destined for greater things than leading the Night's Watch and staying at the Wall. I actually think that the Wall will be breached and/or destroyed and the Night's Watch may not be needed at that location, if at all. Just my opinio, obviously not based on a lot of fact.

 

[TK-421]

We'll never know what that promise was that Ned made to Lyanna. Unless Howland Reed knows.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think the R + L = J parentage is pretty much without contest - there's so much circumstantial evidence to directly support it and there is no other option offered.

The big question, really, is how this impacts the story. Howland Reed seems to be only the only person suggested who is still alive to know the truth of it, but even if revealed, what would it mean for Jon?

After all, the Maester he served as apprentice to in the NW was a Targ who could have been king but took the black - and that was no secret - so having a potential king in the NW is nothing new.

What it means in terms of how it may impact ploit is just plain convoluted - Jon can only be a legitimate heir if the previous Baratheon-Lannister dynasty is accepted as a usurption. Yet I can't imagine many people calling for the return of the Targs as rulers after the last couple they had were mad, bad, and dangerous to know.

I think the only thing it offers is a potential way to bring the kingdoms back into reconcillation - was it Dorne that had the twins the Mountain dealt with, and were seeking revenge for? In which case, Jon potentially offers a way to gain their respect through this. The Starks also held measurable respect.

However, I don't think Jon is being lined up for potential kingship - the way I've always read the characters, Sansa *will* be a queen one day. Question is who too, and I can't see that being Jon.

Additionally, Daenerys has always been set up to be a returning queen of vengeance who will bring fire to Westeros. Question is, will she be defeated, or will a truce be necessary.

This is where Jon perhaps comes in - if we find ourselves in a position where Sansa is queen of the realm and Dany is attacking it, this is where Jon - knowing his lineage - would be in a prime position to broker a truce. He would have the blood of both families, and his position by the Wall makes him entirely neutral.

Anyway ... think I've rambled beyond the subject matter enough for the moment.

 

[The Imp]

I think the R + L = J parentage is pretty much without contest - there's so much circumstantial evidence to directly support it and there is no other option offered.

The big question, really, is how this impacts the story. Howland Reed seems to be only the only person suggested who is still alive to know the truth of it, but even if revealed, what would it mean for Jon?

After all, the Maester he served as apprentice to in the NW was a Targ who could have been king but took the black - and that was no secret - so having a potential king in the NW is nothing new.

What it means in terms of how it may impact ploit is just plain convoluted - Jon can only be a legitimate heir if the previous Baratheon-Lannister dynasty is accepted as a usurption. Yet I can't imagine many people calling for the return of the Targs as rulers after the last couple they had were mad, bad, and dangerous to know.

I think the only thing it offers is a potential way to bring the kingdoms back into reconcillation - was it Dorne that had the twins the Mountain dealt with, and were seeking revenge for? In which case, Jon potentially offers a way to gain their respect through this. The Starks also held measurable respect.

However, I don't think Jon is being lined up for potential kingship - the way I've always read the characters, Sansa *will* be a queen one day. Question is who too, and I can't see that being Jon.

Additionally, Daenerys has always been set up to be a returning queen of vengeance who will bring fire to Westeros. Question is, will she be defeated, or will a truce be necessary.

This is where Jon perhaps comes in - if we find ourselves in a position where Sansa is queen of the realm and Dany is attacking it, this is where Jon - knowing his lineage - would be in a prime position to broker a truce. He would have the blood of both families, and his position by the Wall makes him entirely neutral.

Anyway ... think I've rambled beyond the subject matter enough for the moment.

Of course you're correct in saying that R+L=J isn't a given, but Lyanna is the only mother whose identify would REALLY need to be kept secret IMO> Why would it matter if, for instance, the world knew that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mother? Everyone, including Cat, now think that Ned fathered a bastrd, something that I beleive isn't true, espeically after seeing the way the subject has been treated in the tv series. The identity of the mother couldn't matter, so it would have to be the identity of the father. Rhaegar being the father of Jon throws the biggest monkeywrench into the plot.

I don't think Jon will ever be King, but GRRM has either inserted or implied elements into the plot which make Jon a much more important figure than Commander of the Night's Watch, IMO.

 

[Delran Stark]

Brian, you may be right, but let me show you what I think. You are also forgeting Bran... He is, as of now King of Winter. When news of him being alive will spread, the North may rally to him, except maybe the Boltons and Karstarks. Edmure, once freed may accept Bran as his king, so there goes Riverrun. Sansa may remind herself of her blood, plot to kill Littlefinger and her new husband and join the Vale to the North.

Also, Dorne is searching for Daenerys and will offer their help to her.

So that only leaves the Lannisters with Dragonstone, The Reach, The West, the Stormlands and, of course the crown lands. And the way I see it, Dorne wants revenge against the Lannisters and Tyrells, Daenerys wants revenge agains the Lannisters, so the reach and The West may fall to Dany, the same with the Stormlands and the Crown lands. Lets face it, who can stand against the unsullied and 3 young Dragons?

That will leave the north lead by Starks and South lead by Dany. And Bran might surrender the North.

Also, Jon being bound by blood to Dany and Bran, will be put in a dificult position. If the Night Watch still stands he will remain there if a threat will remain in the north. If there will be no need for the NW anymore, Jon may try to bring the war to the end by persuading Bran and Dany to make peace. If word about him being legitimised gets out, Bran may surrendder the crown to him and he may end the war by wedding Dany.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Either way, whether Jon stays at the Nights Watch or is destined for bigger things, it makes the conversation he had with Maester Aemon in AGOT that much more interesting and important. It will be interesting to see if he is eventually faced with a choice such as Aemon was, and whether he will make the same decision or a different one.

 

[TK-421]

Is Jon, then, the Knight of the Laughing Tree (and Jon is no knight!)????

spoiler:knight of the laughingtree=jon

Knight of Laughing Tree (from old post by Midnight)

 

[Brian G Turner]

That will leave the north lead by Starks and South lead by Dany.

Why would Dany leave the Starks untouched, though? Weren't they one of the first houses to join the banner of rebellion that Baratheon raised?

Not sure myself, hence why asking out loud.

 

[The Imp]

Why would Dany leave the Starks untouched, though? Weren't they one of the first houses to join the banner of rebellion that Baratheon raised?

Not sure myself, hence why asking out loud.

Perhaps they unite to fight the greater threat posed by the Others?

 

[Caledfwlch]

Perhaps they unite to fight the greater threat posed by the Others?

Its been a while since I read the novels, but is Dany actually motivated by a really strong desire to take back Westeros, and wreak revenge on everyone that overthrew her father?

She never seemed a "bad" person, unlike her family, she might well be happy to take back the Throne, but leave others untouched. I have certainly been cheering her along!

Or is George RR going to take the in my opinion boring and done to death option of "blood will out" and have Dany turn into a psychotic, mass murdering Empress, sitting on a throne of pain and skulls?

 

[Ursa major]

Or is George RR going to take the in my opinion boring and done to death option of "blood will out" and have Dany turn into a psychotic, mass murdering Empress, sitting on a throne of pain and skulls?

...or is GRRM going to show how various experiences conspire to create that Empress, in spite of her original character?

 

[Tansy]

Could he be Benjen's son? Taking the black means not having children, could he have fathered a child with someone beyond the wall and left him with Ned to care for? Albeit that Ned came back from the South with him but Benjen could have met up with him on his way back.. just throwing that in there as Jon looked more like Benjen than Ned and there was a poignant scene in the series where Benjen warns Jon of what he is giving up when he joins the watch and that he only doesn't mind as he doesn't know what it means as yet, that might mean that Jon's fate might lie with the wildlings beyond the wall. Also Benjen disappears shortly after Jon arrives, could he be staying away? Just a daft thought ...

 

[Delran Stark]

Why would Dany leave the Starks untouched, though? Weren't they one of the first houses to join the banner of rebellion that Baratheon raised?

Not sure myself, hence why asking out loud.

What I was saying, was that by the end 2 factions will most likely remain in the game. Also, by your reply you have not read the entire post. I'm explaining something right after the quoted line.

Tansy, nope, Jon is not Benjen's son.

 

[Ursa major]

Tansy, nope, Jon is not Benjen's son.

You seem very sure of this, DS. What's your reasoning/evidence?

 

[Tansy]

Just watching the 3rd episode now and seems they are trying to make us think this in the series lol, maybe its a red herring, but it would tie Jon to the North