Measurements in fantasy world

[Moon Tree]

Hi All,

First of all, I like to say hi to all, as I am new here.

I like to discuss measurements. How are others using basic measurements? I am writing in the fantasy genre and trying to figure out the best way to describe the size of a soldier’s long spear. I’ve read in past books and historical pieces, about horses being certain hands high or the weight of something being a certain stones weight. What about distance like someone being 20 feet or 7 meters away. It seem to me that writing something in feet or meters in a fantasy book, takes the read out of the world and into ours.

Thanks for you time,




Moon Tree

 

[mosaix]

Hi Moontree, welcome to the Chronicles.

I think you a right about this. There are some posts in Critiques that I have read where the actual measurement seemed totally out of place.

This is for two treasons: first, as you said the unit of measure is specific to now and here and it does take the reader out of the plot. Secondly, unless soemone is using a tape measure then distances are only approximate anyway.

One of the ways round it is to use relative terms instead:

"The spear was at least twice his height."

"The tree was about twenty paces away."

Hope this helps.

Why don't you go along to 'introductions' and tell us a little about yourself?

 

[Sapheron]

I'd just use old Imperial measures; inches, feet, miles and all that.

Tolkien, I remember, used leagues often, which are similar, and they don't seem out of place even in a fantasy environment. As people use them less in real life they keep fitting more with the old fantasy feel as well.

 

[j d worthington]

And I think I'd keep the "hands high" for horses, as -- though it is still used -- it nonetheless has an older feel to it that seems to go well with fantasy. Miles might work, though it can jar. Leagues seems better. As far as feet and inches ... I'm very dubious about those, in a created world. (In an historical fantasy, they would be perfectly appropriate.) For that, you might find some approximation in relation to your character, something a bit more vague, but which uses your character (his size, etc.) as (if you'll pardon the expression) the yardstick to go by....

Then there's also "rods", which isn't used much these days, but which also has the proper "feel" in most fantasies....

 

[littlemissattitude]

There's always the cubit.

Sorry. I know that's not much help, but I couldn't resist.

On a more serious note, I must say that I disagree about the use of common meausres in fantasy. Yeah, there is the danger that the reader will be pulled out of the narrative for a moment. On the other hand, I like to be able to visualize what is being described, and I can't do that with a completely invented system of measurement that has no comparison to the system I am familiar with (inches, feet, yards). I don't even really get along with metric measures because I did not grow up with them. (Jeer all you want. I'm used to it. ).

I suppose one solution would be to go ahead and make up a system of measurement, but then leave front note or endnote that relates it in some way to common measurement systems.

 

[The Ace]

I remember that Eddings used Leagues quite a lot, but he had a big problem in placing the village of Upper Gralt, "Ten leagues (30 miles) from Faldor's farm." I doubt that even the hardiest farm-hand would make a sixty-mile round trip for a beer. Keep your distances believable.

 

[jenna]

I think imperial measurements are fine in a fantasy book. I know they are from our world, but we do have to borrow a lot from our world in order to convey a story! (Unless you want to write the whole thing in a made up language of course) As long as the things you use are technical like measurements I don't see a problem. Obvioulsy other things you have to be careful of (I remember the late and great David Gemmell describe a character in Legend as "an Amazon" - oops!).

 

[Culhwch]

So how many rods to a cubit?

I wouldn't use a completely made up system of measurement, myself. I'm more of a mind to use the more archaic terms, or comparison, as mosaix suggests. In my work I use terms like hands, handspans, or spans, yards for height or paces for length, leagues, things along those lines...

 

[littlemissattitude]

So how many rods to a cubit?

Other way around; according to Wikipedia its 11 cubits to a rod. And of course you already know that a cubit is the length from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger.

 

[Commonmind]

I for one am not a fan of units of measurement that require reading a glossary in order to make some sense out of them. One instance would be in the Wheel of Time, where a foot is equal to 10 inches, a pace is 3 feet, 2 paces is one span, 1000 spans is equal to a mile and 4 miles is equal to a league. Now, there are some of those terms that might be well known to people, even their relation of measurement, however, not all readers are going to, and my assumption is that the majority will probably lack that knowledge. When I write I tend to use feet and sometimes the measurement of time to relate great distances that I would otherwise mark in miles. On the surface this may seem even more confusing, but I don't think it is as jarring as having to discern units of measurement that are simply not common knowledge. In the few cases I do decide to write out the distance clearly for the reader, I will do it in miles and sometimes follow it with one of the less well-known units so that the reader will have a base knowledge in case I decide to use it again... For instance.

Jael's gelding was already covered in thick sheets of lather. Pressing the beast any longer would mean its death and he persuing on foot, madness in this heat. Still, there were twenty miles between him and Nye, a half-league or more, and there might be other options to consider. If he could muster the nerve to let Asorith use the Stone, he might make that distance in less than a blink. Maybe he would travel a full league ahead of them, to meet Nye and his men face-to-face, leaving him with surprise blinding his eyes and fear sating his desire to attack.

So, I've tried to give the reader some explanation to the unit of measurement, and hopefully retaining that they can now discern that a half-league is equal to 20 miles and that a full league equal to 40. Just a suggestion, and I hope it doesn't sound too confusing.

 

[Moon Tree]

Your response was great. It gave me some good ideas.




Moon Tree

 

[Susan Boulton]

Personally I would just decide of what type of measurement I was going to use it and just use it. If you start explaining or giving any conversions into other measurements, it, in my opinion, starts to fall apart.

One thing to remember when reading fantasy, the world is make-believe, things will be different, accept them as presented don't try to change them into "real" terms.

One thing to remember when writing fantasy, your characters live in this world, they know it, they should not have to stop and explain things, you as the writer should not stop the action to explain things unless it is important to the plot.

 

[Commonmind]

Personally I would just decide of what type of measurement I was going to use it and just use it. If you start explaining or giving any conversions into other measurements, it, in my opinion, starts to fall apart.

One thing to remember when reading fantasy, the world is make-believe, things will be different, accept them as presented don't try to change them into "real" terms.

One thing to remember when writing fantasy, your characters live in this world, they know it, they should not have to stop and explain things, you as the writer should not stop the action to explain things unless it is important to the plot.

In my opinion if the writer can interweve these explanations skillfully and use them only to introduce (or reiterate when needed) the reader to the convention they will use throughout their novel, then it really doesn't detract from the story, or take the reader out of the world itself. If, however, the writer is constantly assailing the reader with obtrusive explanations it might pose a problem. It just depends on how it is done, and if it's tasteful I definitely don't see an issue. A writer has to explain other aspects of their book that may be foreign to most readers, there is no reason a line should be drawn where those explanations might be needed and necessary, simply because it is a conversion of conventional terminology.

Of course, the above rebuttal only relates to the point I presented earlier, where conversion is meant to help introduce the reader to new forms of measurement...

 

[chrispenycate]

While saying "His spear was six cubits and a span" or "He had walked a hundred furlongs that day, 'cross rough terrain. as was much wearied" might be accurate, the tendency would be for the reader to lose the thread of the story. I couldn't even tell you if the troop had drunk two hogsheads of fine ale, they were suffering from blinding hangovers or just pleasantly refreshed without looking it up in my conversion tables; and I'm someone for whom a "stone" (fourteen pounds, or an eighth of a hundredweight) is a natural way of giving people's masses (he weighed in at ten stone four = 144 pounds) while weights in pounds need to be converted - normally into kilograms, as that's the system I normally think in now.
If you worked in genuine mediaeval weights and weasures, it'd be worse than my grandmother's recipe book.

 

[jackokent]

This is a really interesting question.

I do find certain measurements too contemporary sounding (especially if we go metric) but agree with Chris that obsure ones are meaningless to most of us. I have problems with things like weeks and months even, as I am not sure whether to use them.

 

[Urien]

This is very small, that's far away.

 

[Culhwch]

I have problems with things like weeks and months even, as I am not sure whether to use them.

Yeah, me too. In the work I'm writing at the moment I've renamed months (although there's only eleven), but with the exception of one or two they just sound stupid, so I keep chopping and changing. Weeks and days, too - I always feel a little cliched using something like 'sixthday'. But our day names are far too out of place.

I've noticed George RR Martin tends to just not bother with such things. Perhaps that's the best way - write around it.

 

[Commonmind]

I've never considered changing the passage of time. Measurement and distance seems more fitting a change than changing a day, week, month or a year to something else just for creativity's sake. I think the latter is too difficult an undertaking. A reader might be able to swallow a pace or a league, instead a yard or a few miles, but if you start reworking the concept of time you're going to have to make it extremely convincing and make it a part of the story; again, not changing it purely for the sake of.

Maybe it's not that difficult for a sci-fi audience, where differing planets and such have different measurements for days, weeks, months and years. But I don't know, I find it hard to relate to those kinds of changes unless they are pivotal to the plot or play some role in events.

 

[mosaix]

This is very small, that's far away.

Do you get Father Ted in New York?

If not you will think my question very bizarre.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

This, I believe, is one of those insoluable dilemmas that come up in writing imaginary world fantasy. Older words or made-up words for weights and measurements can contribute to the atmosphere, but they can also leave the reader completely in the dark about whatever it is they are supposed to describe -- and whichever way an author chooses to go, somebody is going to have a problem with it.

Speaking for myself, I tend to be a picky reader, but as far as distances and such are concerned, I'm generally quite happy to assume that the writer has translated these terms, just like every other word in the story. Where I do have a problem is when characters speak or think in modern terms that imply concepts or attitudes incompatible with their setting, culture, environment, etc. -- which is to say, words that would not really translate, or ideas that would not, shall we say, exactly contribute to the survival of said character within the society he/she inhabits. Many readers are willing to let these things pass, yet they'll quibble over terms like miles and inches.

So you'll never please everyone, but most readers respond favorably to writing that at least gives a convincing impression of internal consistency -- and once you win their trust, they'll stop looking for things to nitpick. Start off well, and they'll follow you willingly wherever you want to take them. But if they stumble over some glaring problem in the first few pages, they'll probably question every little thing from that point on. I know that once something about a book I'm reading triggers that thought process, it's very hard (often impossible) for me to turn it off again.