Newbie post a thread: Least favorite death

[jonath]

I don't know if Aemon has been mentioned already but his was my least favorite death. I wish he had been able to see a member of his family one last time.

 

[Deɑth.]

Oh but he Was praised for his skills in war. often and by many people both in the series as well as peopl;e on this forum.

Because he won the war, temporaly, at least. People won't take a glance a certain details such as the one you pointed out because the Lannisters won the war and who cares about the rest (Looking at the issue from their perspective). Also, he was a good battle commander, he wasn't the best, but he was good. That's what I'm trying to argue.

No, he didn't cross, he was thrown back by Edmure, who, we all agree, was a S----y commander. Yes, defending a river is easier than forcing a crossing, but I don't think Edmure had more men, and he didn't actually have many northmen. Edmure was left with just enough riverlands men to defend Riverrun. He wasn't supposed to deploy them to the field, so he wouldn't have had that many. He brought some more men from the twins to be sure, including about 200 northmen, but Tywin was supposed to have a huge army and is supposed to be a seasoned battle commander. Again, forcing across a river would be difficult, but tywin didn't really use any kind of tactics. He sent a few probes out, which were pushed back, then he came in force. Brienne explains it best. She says he is just feeling with his fingers, then he will make a fist and punch through, or at least try to. the only battle that Tywin Lannister won during the war (apart from the blackwater, but more on that later) was the battle against Roose Boltons troops, and Roose was never expected to win that battle, it was just a feint. It was the equivalent of Robb Stark waving his hand in the air to get Tywin's attention, then kicking him in the nuts.

Because Tywin was rushed to end the war quickly. He was afraid the Vale could join the war since, after all, Lysa was related to the late Lord Stark through his wife, Catelyn Tully. In other words, high chances of them winning the war, which could have been highly disadvantegous to the Lannister. Tywin is a rich man, of course. However, he can't waste all of his strength with just one enemy in a couple of months. I agree that Tywin was rather brusque regarding the battle at the river, he went full out on Edmure to get rid of him, which was a mistake.

I think you're underestimating the geographical advantage Edmure had. Indeed he is a terrible commander, but in certain places, even a certain number of soldiers can retain a huge number of them. For example, the castle of the Reyne (IIRC) or the Eyre. Not the same situation, but just an example of what I'm talking about.

My point exactly. Tywin underestimated Robb. one of the rules of combat is to never EVER underestimate your apponent. And shouldn't Tywin have known that Robb would have councilors? did he expect that Robb would be fighting by himself? As you say, Tywin knew that the North and the Northmen would make dangerous enemies, so even if he didn't think much of Robb, he should have known that the northmen would give him a hell of a fight anyway. As I said, it doesn't do to underestimate your enemies and a good battle commander wouldn't have done that.

Tywin's main flaw was his arrogance. It affected him both in his personal life (underestimating Tyrion's potential) and his life as a commander as he originally underestimated Robb. Besides, even with good advisors, even a shitty leader can screw things up. However, that wasn't the case with Robb. He left a good impression as a boy with no experience in war actually did good as a battle commander. However, things eventually would have gone wrong for Robb at some point. Things did went wrong and Tywin took advantage of that. Being a commander isn't just about winning battles, but taking chances and don't let them slip, which is something Tywin didn't do.

I wasn't saying the blackwater makes him a bad commander, I was just saying that he got credit for a victory that wasn't his. People say he won the battle of the blackwater and that he saved kings landing, but even if Tywin wasn't there, the Tyrell's men would have been able to break the seige almost as easily. the battle of blackwater isn't evidence that he is a bad commander, but it isn't evidence that he is a good one either. it was Tyrion's idea to make common cause with the Tyrells, not Tywin's, and if Littlefinger hadn't brokered that alliance, then Stannis would probably have crushed Tywin and Kings Landing.

I'm pretty Tywin would have come up with that idea, at some point. The fact Tywin agreed with the idea shows him that he might have come up with some point, but Tyrion got ahead of him, I'll admit that.

I have no points to refute here since yours are valid. The Tyrells were the main factor in the battle. But he did win the battle, he did his part. He brought his men along with Mace's, that gives him an equally important part on the battle. It just that it wasn't a victory that can be credited all to him, but to different commanders. Also, you need to remember that Joffrey (his grandson) was the king and the Lannisters influence on the council was strong, therebefore, it is not surprising Tywin got credited about the fight.

yeah, those examples again are not evidence that he is a bad battle commander. He is a rutheless man whose reputation is based on him doing despicable things. The Red Wedding was a strategic move that saved his men from having to take to the field again. Essentially, He was so scared of having to continue fighting Robb Stark, that he orchestrated the most despicable act to happen in the series so far.

Scared? Or smart?

The WWII could have extended a couple more of years until the Axis would have finally lost (we all saw it coming given the English and russian attacks on them along with the Americans). However, with the Nuclear Bomb dropping, they spared everyone more countless and meaningless deaths at the cost of fewer deaths. Cold reasonining, indeed. Morally correct? I don't agree. However, it was necessary.

Before you think I compared the Starks to the Axis (which might sound like that...), I'm just trying to let you see things from another perspective. Tywin spared himself a couple of years in war with the Stark. Sure, the latter could have eventually lost given all the circumtances that were against them, but it would have took time. Time that implies resources and soldiers. Also, let's not forget the entire event it's partly Robb's fault.

And most despicable? Story-wise? Sure. However, it's just war at the end of the day. As Tywin said, how is more honourable to kill thousand on the battlefield? Sometimes, we need to do the necessary. Not to mention Robb wanted to kill his grandson. Would you have let him do that? I wouldn't.

In discussions, we sometimes look back (with perfect hindsight) at things either Robb, Renly, or Stannis should have done differently in the war, but there were so many ways that Tywin could have made a faster end to the war long before the Red Wedding would have been necessary.

In hindsight, everyone could have taken different actions. Aerys should have accepted Tywin's marriage proposal and the Targaryen would still be ruling the Seven Kingdoms. Joffrey shouldn't have beheaded Eddard. Renly should have allied with Stannis instead of being stubborn. Robb should have bent the knee instead of keep fighting. He should have not married that westering girl.

Everyone could have done things different, but they didn't go as that. It's similar to life. You make a decision, turns out the other one could have given you a better outcome. Some wars can be avoided, but they just aren't given the incompetence of some people or maybe it couldn't have avoided and things would have eventually exploded later.

My entire point is that Tywin is a good battle commander, not great, but good. His forte was always being a good administrator and being able to raise the wealth, influence and political power of those he serve (the Iron Throne, his family, etc.). Let's agree to disagree if you desire.

Late reply because I got too lazy and I forgot, lol.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Because Tywin was rushed to end the war quickly. He was afraid the Vale could join the war since, after all, Lysa was related to the late Lord Stark through his wife, Catelyn Tully. In other words, high chances of them winning the war, which could have been highly disadvantegous to the Lannister. Tywin is a rich man, of course. However, he can't waste all of his strength with just one enemy in a couple of months. I agree that Tywin was rather brusque regarding the battle at the river, he went full out on Edmure to get rid of him, which was a mistake.

I think you're underestimating the geographical advantage Edmure had. Indeed he is a terrible commander, but in certain places, even a certain number of soldiers can retain a huge number of them. For example, the castle of the Reyne (IIRC) or the Eyre. Not the same situation, but just an example of what I'm talking about.

My point here is that a good or wise battle commander wouldn't have wasted all his strength attacking such a strongly defended position. He could have explored his other options and done things differently. Maybe he thought that his only course of action was to attack riverrun, but I can't agree that smashing his army was a good decision.

My entire point is that Tywin is a good battle commander, not great, but good. His forte was always being a good administrator and being able to raise the wealth, influence and political power of those he serve (the Iron Throne, his family, etc.). Let's agree to disagree if you desire.

Late reply because I got too lazy and I forgot, lol.

I agree that Tywin was an excellent administrator, and there is no question that he was able to raise his influence, but I think owning the richest gold mines in the realm helped that as well. It is said often in the series that Tywin restored the honour and influence of his house because his father was not a good administrator. So I agree, he was an excellent administrator, and he was a hard and ruthless man. I guess we can agree to disagree, but I think I already proved my point.

My entire point is that Tywin is a good battle commander, not great, but good. .

my point being, he was not as great a battle commander as people made him out to be.

And he is still an awesome character. His stare down of Lord Rykker is possible my favorite part of the series.

Unbidden, a memory came to her, of the feast King Aerys had thrown when Cersei first came to court, a girl as green as summer grass. Old Merryweather had been nattering about raising the duty on wine when Lord Rykker said, “If we need gold, His Grace should sit Lord Tywin on his chamber pot.” Aerys and his lickspittles laughed loudly, whilst Father stared at Rykker over his wine cup. Long after the merriment had died that gaze had lingered. Rykker turned away, turned back, met Father’s eyes, then ignored them, drank a tankard of ale, and stalked off red-faced, defeated by a pair of unflinching eyes.

 

[Deɑth.]

And Stannis is not the amazing king Melissandre or other people make him out to be. I still hold the belief Tywin is a pretty good battle commander. But, if I had to say he was among the top three, I wouldn't put him in such high position. Euron Greyjoy, for example, is a good battle commander. He basically took the Reach undefended because he did what no one else had done before. Even when news reached King's Landing, Cersei herself couldn't believe it.

Mace Tyrell is known as well winning several battles through the war. Tyrion is another good battle commander with his own tricks.

However, the characters in the book have their own opinions based on what they know, hear and read. Just like us. Some might argue Obama is a good President while others will disagree.

Owing the richest gold of mines did help him, however, the fact his family doesn't/didn't heavily rely on those gold mines, but rather trade with different companies through Lannisport is a sign of a wise administrator. Take my country (Venezuela), for example. Heavily relies on oil and, yet, we're still suffering the greatest economical bankrupt we've ever witnessed in our 200 years of history. Tywin had the gold mines as a plataform to start, but moved on to other sources of wealth, similar to many other countries (for example, the US that are starting to develop the idea of different sources of energy).

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Owing the richest gold of mines did help him, however, the fact his family doesn't/didn't heavily rely on those gold mines, but rather trade with different companies through Lannisport is a sign of a wise administrator. Take my country (Venezuela), for example. Heavily relies on oil and, yet, we're still suffering the greatest economical bankrupt we've ever witnessed in our 200 years of history. Tywin had the gold mines as a plataform to start, but moved on to other sources of wealth, similar to many other countries (for example, the US that are starting to develop the idea of different sources of energy).

That is true. At the expense of my own argument, I am not sure why I brought up the gold mines, as they clearly didn't help Lord Tytos Lannister (Tywin's father), which resulted in Tywin having to win back the prestige of his house.

Randyl Tarley is another accomplished Battle Commander that I would put above Tywin, as well as the Blackfish. and if we are speaking specifically about battle Tactics, Robb Stark was obviously pretty good, though he was too ignorent about the politics of war wheras Tywin was the opposite. He was very adept at dealing with the politics of war, but only moderately equiped for battlefeild tactics (IMO).

 

[Deɑth.]

Yeah.

Robb definitely failed to understand that breaking one girl's honour can't be compared to losing your entire realm. Well, most of important characters that tried to play the game of thrones died because they made one or two mistakes. Renly, Robb or Tywin are no different in the matter.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

you can add Stannis, Cersei, Ned, Lysa and Robert Baratheon to that list.

Stannis and Cersei may not be dead yet, but it is only a matter of time.

 

[Deɑth.]

I don't think Robert ever played it. He was just sitting on the Iron Throne since his presence held everyone togeher: Stark, Tully, Baratheron and Lannisters. Basically, a figure the rebellion put there to prevent any further conflicts.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I don't think Robert ever played it. He was just sitting on the Iron Throne since his presence held everyone togeher: Stark, Tully, Baratheron and Lannisters. Basically, a figure the rebellion put there to prevent any further conflicts.

You can't be a king and not play it. He wasn't an active player I give you that, but he was a piece in the game thus playing it by default. He was very reluctant in it and wasn't suited for it, but he did play it. It was just that he was a very bad player who was easily manipulated making him more of a piece. For instance, he didn't allow Tywin or Jaime to be a hand but had given it to Ned. It shows a degree of thought being put into it because he did say he was getting too surrounded by the Lannisters.

 

[Boaz]

Well, most of important characters that tried to play the game of thrones died because they made one or two mistakes. Renly, Robb or Tywin are no different in the matter.

you can add Stannis, Cersei, Ned, Lysa and Robert Baratheon to that list.

Stannis and Cersei may not be dead yet, but it is only a matter of time.

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

I cannot believe that Cersei was the prophet that uttered those words.

How many mistakes did Robert make? Boat loads. How many mistakes did Eddard make? Some. How about Tywin? Not many. Robb? A few. Renly? One. And they're all gone. Yet, Cersei keeps on spinning her webs. Even with gaping holes, her traps have ensnared Eddard and Robert. The rash or incautious prey have been taken... and now only the silent and elusive still oppose her. The mockingbird and the spider are too aware of the snares to be caught. She thinks of them as prey, but they consider themselves the hunters... as poor Kevan found out. I was hoping he could be the one to forge a new realm with the Targs.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

I cannot believe that Cersei was the prophet that uttered those words.

This seems like a really clever line, especially for Cersei, but on reflection it is way too much a simplification. Sometimes you win AND die, like Robert Baratheon.

Valar Moghulis

It all depends on your definition of winning.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

But the thing is. You can never truly win because the game never truly ends. You just have to keep winning. Robert didn't keep on winning.

 

[Boaz]

This seems like a really clever line, especially for Cersei, but on reflection it is way too much a simplification. Sometimes you win AND die, like Robert Baratheon.

Valar Moghulis

It all depends on your definition of winning.

I did not have sex with that woman.

But the thing is. You can never truly win because the game never truly ends. You just have to keep winning. Robert didn't keep on winning.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I did not have sex with that woman.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die.

Am I the only one confused by this?

 

[Boaz]

Arsten, sometimes I confuse myself. Uh... it's Goldfinger's big line to Bond in Goldfinger.... winning the game, losing the game. It made sense when I posted it.

 

[Deɑth.]

I think he meant "I did not have sex with that woman" part because either I'm slow today or I did not get it.

 

[MummRa]

I took it to be a play on the "It all depends on your definition of...." hearkening back to dear Slick Willy Clinton.

I haven't seen any mention yet of Pate's death.. Poor Pate, who only wanted to make a coin so he could buy the virginity of a serving girl

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I took it to be a play on the "It all depends on your definition of...." hearkening back to dear Slick Willy Clinton.

I haven't seen any mention yet of Pate's death.. Poor Pate, who only wanted to make a coin so he could buy the virginity of a serving girl

it is so often the innocent who suffer when these great lords play their game of thrones.

Pate was a conundrum though. He seemed so useless, but at the same time, had lots of close friends and there were strong hints that him and the serving girl (i want to say Rosie?) actually had a legitimate relationship, by which I mean, his love for her seemed to be reciprocated.

 

[<nox>]

I'm on my third re-read of the series and just finished GoT and both of the worst deaths are in that one.
Ned Stark and Lady.
I know it's not original to be a Ned sympathizer but I simply loved him. I desperately wanted to re-read the moments leading up to Ned's death so I could try on some of the crackpot theories that are so popular but I...I just couldn't re-read it. Not only did it hurt to read of his death but the horror and pain that Sansa and Arya went through witnessing it was just gut wrenching.
As for Lady, that moment when Ned truly sees her and realizes what a lady she is...Gah!! Waterworks!!

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I hear ya Nox. Lady's death was terrible. The same went for the death of Greywind, which, in my opinion, was the worst thing about the Red Wedding, especially considering how brutal Greywind's death was. Though the loss of Dacey Mormont stung too.